Slightly complex autopilot question

[Shuggy]

Background: I have a 1971 Nicholson 43, which has LWL of about 30 feet. The existing (now broken) autopilot consists of the following:

1971 Neco rotary drive unit, converted to act as an Autohelm type 1 drive (I have no idea who did this, but it must have been about 25-30 years ago).
This is controlled by an Autohelm type 100 12v course computer, with its associated rudder feedback unit and fluxgate compass. It's not connected to any other system on board at the moment - it just works in merry isolation, so no XTE etc.

I have started to replace the electronics with more modern stuff, so the rest of the system is based on a B&G Vulcan chart plotter with an NMEA 2k backbone linked to VHF, AIS, wind/depth instruments.

As you will know, Autohelm=Raymarine and B&G=Simrad.

Hope you're still with me! I'd like to replace the whole autopilot system but having looked at the cost I'm reeling a bit. I can cope with replacing the course computer, control unit and compass but not at the same time as the drive, which just adds a whole heap more £ into the project. What I'd like to do is retain the Neco drive for the foreseeable future - its installation was designed when the boat was built and it is absolutely perfect. It may use more juice than a modern hydraulic drive but I can live with that for the moment.

I think I have two options:

1. Buy a Raymarine ACU-200 pack for £1850 and work on the basis that as my Neco drive has been spoofing the old Autohelm type 100 course computer for about 30 years, it'll be fine. Question is - will my B&G plotter recognise it? It should do, on the basis that it will all be on NMEA 2k, even if it does mean chopping up the Raymarine Seatalk NG cable and fitting it with standard NMEA 2k fittings, or buying some sort of adapter. I'm not too worried about that bit - I've done it before. The disadvantage is that it probably won't be as seamless as fitting a Simrad autopilot as the B&G plotter will almost certainly be happier with it and the control head unit.

2. Buy a Simrad NAC-2 (or NAC-3) autopilot system for about the same money, which will be a much easier fit with the B&G plotter. Question is - will it be able to control my Neco rotary drive? Simrad don't seem to do an electric rotary drive, so I'm concerned it may not be compatible. I've got a technical query in with the Simrad helpdesk, which may or may not help - I suspect they'll say they don't know, as it's a non-standard rotary drive unit.

Q1: Does anyone have any insight into compatibility between the Raymarine autopilot and the B&G plotter - would I be missing any element of the experience by not buying Simrad?

Q2: Does anyone know if the Simrad NAC-2 can drive an Autohelm type 1 rotary drive?

Thanks in advance if you've read to the end!

 

[Venus1]

for question 1: my Vulcan 7 will not talk to my (new) raymarine pilot. This does not bother me.
(It may be that the larger Vulcan models will talk to a raymarine pilot - I don’t know.)

 

[Shuggy]

for question 1: my Vulcan 7 will not talk to my (new) raymarine pilot. This does not bother me.
(It may be that the larger Vulcan models will talk to a raymarine pilot - I don’t know.)

Ah - that's helpful. Thank you. Are they both on an NMEA 2k/STNG backbone?

Mine's a Vulcan 9. It has autopilot functionality in the set-up menu.

 

[mhouse]

Ah - that's helpful. Thank you. Are they both on an NMEA 2k/STNG backbone?

Mine's a Vulcan 9. It has autopilot functionality in the set-up menu.

The Vulcan 7 (I have one) will send waypoints to the raymarine acu but not be able to control the pilot. The problem i had was the raymarine pilot was not able to have the software updated via the Vulcan and needed a raymarine mfd connected. I have had 2 raymarine pilot heads fail in 2 years I wish i had stayed with B &G.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The B&G plotter should connect to the Raymarine AP and send data to allow the AP to steer to a waypoint or route. It will not control the AP though. you would have to select the waypoint or route on the plotter, then engage the AP.

If you fitted the Simrad AP it should do all of the above, plus you should be able to engage/disengage etc from the plotter.

I'm not familiar with the Neco drive, but i would expect it to work with any AP core pack that has the appropriate connections, power, clutch etc. The AP computer has no way of telling what drive it is connected to, it receives no data back from the drive, except in rare cases, where rudder position data is sent back (Garmin, for instance). I've connected Simrad APs to various non-Simrad drives and they have worked perfectly. If it was me, i'd be inclined to fit a Simrad AP, unless Simrad advise against using the Neco drive.

 

[Tradewinds]

I have the Neco drive working with the Simrad NAC3 computer and B&G instruments (Vulcan 9 and Triton2 APC) on my Nicholson 39. Works very well, but I don't use all of the functions at the moment - I just put the boat on course and select Auto.

I have full instructions for the Neco drive conversion if required.

These instructions were kindly provided by Danielefua of this forum.

 

[Shuggy]

I'm not familiar with the Neco drive, but i would expect it to work with any AP core pack that has the appropriate connections, power, clutch etc. The AP computer has no way of telling what drive it is connected to, it receives no data back from the drive, except in rare cases, where rudder position data is sent back (Garmin, for instance). I've connected Simrad APs to various non-Simrad drives and they have worked perfectly. If it was me, i'd be inclined to fit a Simrad AP, unless Simrad advise against using the Neco drive.

Thanks for this - having looked at the wiring I can see that there is no data back. Should have done my homework better!

 

[Shuggy]

I have the Neco drive working with the Simrad NAC3 computer and B&G instruments (Vulcan 9 and Triton2 APC) on my Nicholson 39. Works very well, but I don't use all of the functions at the moment - I just put the boat on course and select Auto.

I have full instructions for the Neco drive conversion if required.

These instructions were kindly provided by Danielefua of this forum.

Tradewinds - yes please, the instructions would be helpful just so I can see what I'm looking at when I open it up. It's currently not working and has blown the course computer so it would be helpful to have the instructions in case I need to get it repaired. I'll PM you.

 

[PCUK]

We have a Raymarine pilot driving a Vetus hydraulic pump. The pump is nothing more than a reversible motor so I can't see any reason why your current pump wouldn't work. All it does is take power from the controller in one direction or the other.

 

[Venus1]

Ah - that's helpful. Thank you. Are they both on an NMEA 2k/STNG backbone?

Mine's a Vulcan 9. It has autopilot functionality in the set-up menu.

I think others have answered more fully, but to answer your question: Yes, my raymarine is connected to the N2K backbone (eg my Vulcan displays heading which is sourced from the autopilot‘s compass) - but as said by Paul rainbow and others, it still won’t control the raymarine autopilot.

 

[Shuggy]

Thanks all - I’m going to buy a Simrad core pack so I get full functionality. I’ve learned a bit about autopilot drives today so I just need to crack on and get it fitted now.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Contact Greenham Regis - I think the bloke you really want is in their Chichester office; the bloke at Southampton also knows about them, but may deny it. Best to visit in person. They probably did your mod in the first place.

 

[tillergirl]

Shuggy - dare I ask you have got the Neco Control Unit redundant still and would part with it? Tradeswind and Danielefua are enormously helpful; I am bringing my Neco back to life.

 

[Shuggy]

Shuggy - dare I ask you have got the Neco Control Unit redundant still and would part with it? Tradeswind and Danielefua are enormously helpful; I am bringing my Neco back to life.

Hi Tillergirl - I'm afraid I don't. I've only got the (broken) Autohelm type 100 and the associated control head (which is fine). I'll strip them out in the next couple of moths when I've bought the Simrad kit.

 

[tillergirl]

No worries. I think the Neco drive unit is very well built. I am sure it will continue to serve you.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Expect the Neco motor to fail, they are old tech. I am planning on replacing my Neco motor running from a RM Evolution 400 system with a Jeffa unit motor. Jefa Steering Systems
Hudson Marine converted the motor to run on any unit. All the gubbins on top of the motor were discarded and I had 4 cables left to connect to the ACU400. Marine Electronics UK - Hudson Marine Electronics. I have no idea what they did but the cables were new. Hudson Marine were very helpful and tested the motor on their own RM test system before sending it to me. I would not rely on the Neco motor if going afar, fine for coastal. Www.morganscloud.com has info on reliability of the Neco motor post conversation.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Tillergirl, pm me, I have all the bits from mine, except the motor and the stuff under the motor top cover.

 

[Shuggy]

For anyone interested, the Simrad NAC-3 is now hooked up to the B&G Vulcan 9 and they're both talking to each other (along with the AP44 control head, RF25 rudder sensor and Precision-9 heading sensor). The Neco drive unit is down at Greenham Regis and has been assessed as being ok but in need of a bit of TLC. I've taken the opportunity to clear up the 49 year old mounting plate and the Autohelm kit has now been sold to help pay for the new Simrad stuff. Happy days.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Mike&Buster]

I have the Neco drive working with the Simrad NAC3 computer and B&G instruments (Vulcan 9 and Triton2 APC) on my Nicholson 39. Works very well, but I don't use all of the functions at the moment - I just put the boat on course and select Auto.

I have full instructions for the Neco drive conversion if required.

These instructions were kindly provided by Danielefua of this forum.

I have the Neco drive working with the Simrad NAC3 computer and B&G instruments (Vulcan 9 and Triton2 APC) on my Nicholson 39. Works very well, but I don't use all of the functions at the moment - I just put the boat on course and select Auto.

I have full instructions for the Neco drive conversion if required.

These instructions were kindly provided by Danielefua of this forum.

Tradewinds, I am very interested in the instructions for the Neco motor conversion. Could you give me the details?

 

[pauldowrick]

I would also be very interested.