Single hand a Jeanneau 409/419?

[dunedin]

The rig is not heavier. The section of the mast on a furling rig is smaller and lighter. You seem to be thinking of the add on systems where weight aloft was increased and may have had an effect on stability. The sail is flatter but as I tried to explain (but you ignore) can have its shape adjusted and more importantly you are not limited to 3 arbitrary mainsail areas but can adjust the sail area to suit the conditions - just as you can with a furling jib. Appreciate that is difficult to understand for somebody who only has experience of fixed reef points. You need a different mindset to sail a boat that has a different way of adjusting sail area.

Do you seriously think that all the clever people who design these boats don't know what is involved, nor that the thousands of people who choose to buy this system don't know what they are doing when they make their choice of rig?

You really should come out of the past and try a modern boat then you might understand why other people make a different choice from you.

Tranoma - it's a rare occasion, but this time it is you who I think has gone off piste! A furling mainsail will certainly have extra weight aloft compared to a slab reefing rig. Primarily the furling drum itself, but also possibly the mast section as needs to be slightly stiffer. Not huge issues for most who want furling mains (as tend not to be performance oriented) - but definitely slightly more weight aloft.
And perfectly competent these days - but the sail adjustment is definitely much less. In particular really difficult to get an effective Cunningham control on an in mast furler.
We are now 10 years and never been overtaken upwind under sail by a furling mainsail on any size of boat. (But again for others upwind performance isn't the priority)

 

[dunedin]

There are probably lots of reasons, least of which is cost. In-boom furling requires the boom to be very precisely positioned otherwise it won't furl cleanly. It's no good if you want to furl downwind. It requires a large and very heavy boom, which some see as a safety issue. When furling, tension needs to be maintained on the halyard, which can be difficult for singlehanders. And, of course, you still have to haul the weight of the sail aloft every time, which some older buyers aren't keen on.

Agree in boom isn't as simple as in mast yet. But doesn't need to be a heavy boom - often use carbon booms for this (further adding to price) - and typically have electric halyard winch on boats that are in this price / size segment (including the X Yachts mentioned with boom furling)

 

[Daydream believer]

Charter boats may well use in mast reefing but the charters do not really care if the boat goes slower.
they can offer a flat sail with little power, no battens, easy to repair & muppets can mess them up as much as they like & the charterer can get them back on the road ASAP. The people that charter will probably be more interested in the booze ups, crumpet, hot weather, scenery etc etc as much as the boats performance any way
Anyone genuinely interested in sailing efficiently will not consider it.
Sailing is an art form & if one wants to exploit that then finely tuned sails are part of the fun. If one just wants to cruise from A-B with zero hassle & have no interest in the finer art of the sport then they may well be happy with carp sails & in mast reefing, self tacking jibs or genoas
It is all a matter of personal choice. If you like it - then have it- but there is no point in abusing someone with a different opinion or a different requirement from their sailing experience
If the OP has any sense he will try the options, get a feel for what he wants & take that route & tell the forum to get stuffed whether he takes the in mast or proper reefing systems

 

[dune16]

This is my concern. At first I will want to make life as easy as possible getting used to the boat but later down the line I have no doubt I will be looking to perfect performance etc and this is where inmast becomes the issue. I am certainly grateful for everyone's input but didn't want to start any arguments Self tacker is off the list and I am about 70/30 in favour of the standard mast right now but ease of use single handed is slowly moving me to inmast.

 

[pvb]

This is my concern. At first I will want to make life as easy as possible getting used to the boat but later down the line I have no doubt I will be looking to perfect performance etc and this is where inmast becomes the issue.

To be frank, if you're cruising with your family, they'll get rather bored if you're constantly tweaking things to try to get an extra nano-knot. If you want perfect performance, leave the family at home and buy a racing boat.

 

[Tranona]

Tranoma - it's a rare occasion, but this time it is you who I think has gone off piste! A furling mainsail will certainly have extra weight aloft compared to a slab reefing rig. Primarily the furling drum itself, but also possibly the mast section as needs to be slightly stiffer. Not huge issues for most who want furling mains (as tend not to be performance oriented) - but definitely slightly more weight aloft.
And perfectly competent these days - but the sail adjustment is definitely much less. In particular really difficult to get an effective Cunningham control on an in mast furler.
We are now 10 years and never been overtaken upwind under sail by a furling mainsail on any size of boat. (But again for others upwind performance isn't the priority)

Pretty sure I am right. The furling gear is not aloft, but at the base of the mast. The mandrel is no heavier than the track on a conventional mast. The section is lighter and and the sail is a fraction of the weight of a fully battened sail. I was assured when I bought my boat that the stability was exactly the same with either rig. Putting a radar dome up the mast has far more effect on stability.

I was out on my own today in gusty conditions with wind rising to 20 knots and gusts of 25. No drama. Easily reefed both sails when steady wind got over 20 and then put the sails away without leaving the cockpit.

On other occasions when hard on the wind up Poole Harbour i have no difficulty in keeping up with some quite racy boats. Last time I went to the Solent in relatively light winds on the quarter, I level pegged a Starlight 35 (also just plain sail) for over 10 miles across. The performance loss is much less than you imagine and more than made up by the ease of operation.

Not sure why you would want a Cunningham control. The major adjustment is the outhaul/reefing inhaul which adjusts the draft of the sail. I was experimenting with this today - flattening the sail when beating and relaxing when off the wind. Definitely feel the difference (particularly reduction in weather helm), small increase in speed, and visibly by the set of sails.

 

[geem]

Pretty sure I am right. The furling gear is not aloft, but at the base of the mast. The mandrel is no heavier than the track on a conventional mast. The section is lighter and and the sail is a fraction of the weight of a fully battened sail. I was assured when I bought my boat that the stability was exactly the same with either rig. Putting a radar dome up the mast has far more effect on stability.

I was out on my own today in gusty conditions with wind rising to 20 knots and gusts of 25. No drama. Easily reefed both sails when steady wind got over 20 and then put the sails away without leaving the cockpit.

On other occasions when hard on the wind up Poole Harbour i have no difficulty in keeping up with some quite racy boats. Last time I went to the Solent in relatively light winds on the quarter, I level pegged a Starlight 35 (also just plain sail) for over 10 miles across. The performance loss is much less than you imagine and more than made up by the ease of operation.

Not sure why you would want a Cunningham control. The major adjustment is the outhaul/reefing inhaul which adjusts the draft of the sail. I was experimenting with this today - flattening the sail when beating and relaxing when off the wind. Definitely feel the difference (particularly reduction in weather helm), small increase in speed, and visibly by the set of sails.

So of in mast reefing is so good why do racing boats not use it? You couldn't convince me that there is not drop in performance. I understand that the vertical batten in mast sails set better than the plane unbattened sails. I have seen some pretty awful in mast reefing sails that would not get you upwind and we have friends who have converted to slab reefing who say the performance advantage in very noticeable.
In addition, when heavily reefed the inmast reefed sail still has the sail up the mast, albeit furled. This must effect the healing of the boat compared to slab reefing that brings the sail weight down towards the boom.

 

[doug748]

Tranoma - it's a rare occasion, but this time it is you who I think has gone off piste! .........

Is it rare, I suggest he has previous.

He purports to have engineering knowledge yet is now saying that mast makers have found a method of producing a startling, stiff, light mast section by the accident of designing one for roller furling. Bizarre.

Anyway onward. Putting the matter in some perspective in terms of performance, American PHRF handicappers will award you 6 seconds in the minute if you fly an unbattened, plain furling main over the standard item. About the same as a fixed solid two blade prop on shaft.

See here:

http://www.phrfne.org/uploaded_files/handicap_adjustments_ver2_062616.pdf

 

[Tranona]

So of in mast reefing is so good why do racing boats not use it? You couldn't convince me that there is not drop in performance. I understand that the vertical batten in mast sails set better than the plane unbattened sails. I have seen some pretty awful in mast reefing sails that would not get you upwind and we have friends who have converted to slab reefing who say the performance advantage in very noticeable.
In addition, when heavily reefed the inmast reefed sail still has the sail up the mast, albeit furled. This must effect the healing of the boat compared to slab reefing that brings the sail weight down towards the boom.

Because it is not a racing boat. why do you think that 90% of HRs over 37' fit Selden in mast reefing rigs?- and have done for over 20 years. at least half and probably the majority of new cruising boats have furling mains - can the owners, all spending upwwards of £100k on their boats all be wrong?

Of course there are poor rigs - just the same as there are poor non furling rigs. Battened furling mains have a mixed reputation. Some work because the mast section is such that there is room for the battens. Others like mine do not have room for full battens, which are a PITA to install anyway.

Suggest you weigh a flat non battened mainsail, then you will realise that the additional weight aloft when furled is minimal. As I suggested earlier just think of the weight of a radar scanner up the mast.

At the risk of repeating myself, one needs to look at what you are using a boat for and weigh up what sort of rig is suitable for your pattern of usage. Saying that racing boats don't use it is completely irrelevant. If you had a racing boat your choice of gear is determined by what is required to win races - and as we know that often results in boats that are useless for cruising - let alone single handed sailing. Just look on on the racing forum, at the discussion on whether you need 6 or 8 crew to race a 30' boat! Different world.

Comments like yours imply that people like me who make a different choice (even though it is now probably a majority choice) somehow don't know what they are doing and need to be constantly told they are wrong.

When buying my new boat every recent buyer chose much the same spec, including the furling main for exactly the same reasons. All experienced people and multiple boat owners who valued the simplicity and flexibility of the rig. In my case reinforced by 15 years ownership of a similar boat, that in turn followed 20 years experience of both roller and slab reefing. One would hope that people like us would have a pretty clear idea about what we want, as well as what works, and what does not.

If you are ever in Poole and at a loose end come and have a sail. Very different kind of boat from yours, but you might be surprised!

BTW I would not suggest for one minute you change the rig on your boat, nor would i dream of criticising your choice.

 

[geem]

Because it is not a racing boat. why do you think that 90% of HRs over 37' fit Selden in mast reefing rigs?- and have done for over 20 years. at least half and probably the majority of new cruising boats have furling mains - can the owners, all spending upwwards of £100k on their boats all be wrong?

Of course there are poor rigs - just the same as there are poor non furling rigs. Battened furling mains have a mixed reputation. Some work because the mast section is such that there is room for the battens. Others like mine do not have room for full battens, which are a PITA to install anyway.

Suggest you weigh a flat non battened mainsail, then you will realise that the additional weight aloft when furled is minimal. As I suggested earlier just think of the weight of a radar scanner up the mast.

At the risk of repeating myself, one needs to look at what you are using a boat for and weigh up what sort of rig is suitable for your pattern of usage. Saying that racing boats don't use it is completely irrelevant. If you had a racing boat your choice of gear is determined by what is required to win races - and as we know that often results in boats that are useless for cruising - let alone single handed sailing. Just look on on the racing forum, at the discussion on whether you need 6 or 8 crew to race a 30' boat! Different world.

Comments like yours imply that people like me who make a different choice (even though it is now probably a majority choice) somehow don't know what they are doing and need to be constantly told they are wrong.

When buying my new boat every recent buyer chose much the same spec, including the furling main for exactly the same reasons. All experienced people and multiple boat owners who valued the simplicity and flexibility of the rig. In my case reinforced by 15 years ownership of a similar boat, that in turn followed 20 years experience of both roller and slab reefing. One would hope that people like us would have a pretty clear idea about what we want, as well as what works, and what does not.

If you are ever in Poole and at a loose end come and have a sail. Very different kind of boat from yours, but you might be surprised!

BTW I would not suggest for one minute you change the rig on your boat, nor would i dream of criticising your choice.

You suggest you can keep up with a racing boat not me. You compare youself to a racing boat not me.
The reason people fit in mast reefing is convenience not performance. To suggest it is as good as fully battened will provoke a response from people who know better.
You suggest you could out pace a Starlight but the Starlight could be setting off as a live aboard with all his worldy pocessions onboard and your boat may be empty. You are trying to tell everybody here that inmast is just as good for performance but it isnt so why do you get upset when you are challenged?
In mast reefing is a good system for a single hander as you dont need to leave the cockpit to reef. I see no other advantage.

 

[ex-Gladys]

Getting back to the subject of new Jeanneaus...

The one observation I have is that the quality of the standard supplied sails is pants. Terrible leech flutter on a jib with a few hours of use ( and needing a foot of leech line to correct) and a main that was really difficult to get draft forward....

 

[cmedsailor]

Getting back to the subject of new Jeanneaus...

The one observation I have is that the quality of the standard supplied sails is pants. Terrible leech flutter on a jib with a few hours of use ( and needing a foot of leech line to correct) and a main that was really difficult to get draft forward....

I have a feeling that the same applies for all new, out of the factory, mass production boats. That's the reason they ALL offer better quality sails as part of their options.

 

[Tranona]

You suggest you can keep up with a racing boat not me. You compare youself to a racing boat not me.
The reason people fit in mast reefing is convenience not performance. To suggest it is as good as fully battened will provoke a response from people who know better.
You suggest you could out pace a Starlight but the Starlight could be setting off as a live aboard with all his worldy pocessions onboard and your boat may be empty. You are trying to tell everybody here that inmast is just as good for performance but it isnt so why do you get upset when you are challenged?
In mast reefing is a good system for a single hander as you dont need to leave the cockpit to reef. I see no other advantage.

Never said anything about racing boats, nor suggested that the performance of my boat is comparable. Just observed that I have been surprised at boats that I can sail with that, for example would leave my old boat standing.

Did not say I outpaced the Starlight, but level pegged over more than 10 miles - and no he was not loaded as a liveaboard - just an ordinary south coast sailor like me. I was surprised he did not seem able to pull away from me. However, comparing a random one off encounter with another boat is not scientific, and not offered as conclusive proof, just an observation, perhaps with some validity as the other boat in question is one that is lauded as one of the best boats of its size. I have no doubt that if one sailed a slab rigged version of my boat alongside an in mast, the former would be "better" - just as the comparative tests of bilge keel and fin keel boats of the same type showed a generation ago. However, that did not stop people buying bilge keel boats when there was a choice - well aware of the small loss in performance, but a gain for them in usability.

Why do you use phrases like "those who know better" when I (and suspect most of those who buy in mast boats) are well aware of the differences between the two types of rig, and it is insulting to suggest otherwise and that somehow we do not know what we are doing.

All I am saying to those who do not have experience of the types of boats and rigs I am talking about might be surprised at how well they perform. All the major designers (my boat was designed by Bruce Farr) now design boats with in mast as standard, and it would be surprising if they were not aware of the supposed stability issues that some claim exist and did not aim to achieve an acceptable level of performance.

Suggest you spend some time at Southampton boat show sitting on one of the stands of the major boat builders and listened to what serious buyers are looking for. Many are mature, experienced boat owners, who sail as couples or effectively single handed. The types of boats they are looking at are big enough to achieve good passage times whichever rig is chosen and the prime requirements are accommodation and ease of use. Unsurprisingly, that is what builders offer and what seems to annoy some here.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

This thread is far too "First World" for me to make any contributions regarding the size of starter boats these days!

 

[mrming]

Genuine question here from someone who's more of a racer.

We use main halyard tension and / or cunningham to move the mainsail's position of maximum draft around. It's an important part of sail trim and I personally wouldn't consider it a luxury / extra.

Is it still possible to adjust the luff tension on an in-mast furling sail?

 

[Tranona]

Genuine question here from someone who's more of a racer.

We use main halyard tension and / or cunningham to move the mainsail's position of maximum draft around. It's an important part of sail trim and I personally wouldn't consider it a luxury / extra.

Is it still possible to adjust the luff tension on an in-mast furling sail?

Yes, but it does not make any noticeable difference and you run the risk of the tack coming off the bottom hook. So best left as tight as you can get it as it also makes furling better (no creases).

Pointless trying to compare what you can do with it against the sort of rig you have. You have to start from a different point and work with it rather than complain that it does not do what a battened non furling rig can do.

That is the problem for many people who come from a background where rigs have got more and more adjustable over the years. When I first started sailing very few rigs had any kind of adjustment - before the days of super strong sailcloth, full battens, assorted bits of string attached to the sail at different points, bendy masts, powerful winches and tackles etc. That has all come to everyday sailors only in the last 30 years or so, and if that is your background then you will find it difficult to adjust. Indeed many people still mark their furling sails to mimic fixed sail sizes or reefs. Why? when the major benefit of furling sails is infinite adjustment of sail area - it is because they have had years of living with fixed sail sizes. Such thinking is unnecessary and those newcomers (like the OP) will not start their learning curve with that mindset.

So, to answer your question, you can alter the draft by using the outhaul, and or the reefing line, as I described in an earlier post. Not as sophisticated as what you can do, but still worth doing.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Indeed many people still mark their furling sails to mimic fixed sail sizes or reefs. Why? when the major benefit of furling sails is infinite adjustment of sail area - it is because they have had years of living with fixed sail sizes. Such thinking is unnecessary and those newcomers (like the OP) will not start their learning curve with that mindset.

I've just bought a new roller furled Genoa, which the sailmaker has marked with one black dot, two black dots and three black dots, which i assume are "reefing points".

 

[dune16]

Looks like I'll be doing my competent crew course (and day skipper if cc goes well) on a jeanneau 379

 

[PaulRainbow]

Looks like I'll be doing my competent crew course (and day skipper if cc goes well) on a jeanneau 379

Not sure if there is a need to do cc and then day skipper ? Would it not be better to do day skipper then coastal skipper or yachtmaster ?

 

[geem]

Tranoma - it's a rare occasion, but this time it is you who I think has gone off piste! A furling mainsail will certainly have extra weight aloft compared to a slab reefing rig. Primarily the furling drum itself, but also possibly the mast section as needs to be slightly stiffer. Not huge issues for most who want furling mains (as tend not to be performance oriented) - but definitely slightly more weight aloft.
And perfectly competent these days - but the sail adjustment is definitely much less. In particular really difficult to get an effective Cunningham control on an in mast furler.
We are now 10 years and never been overtaken upwind under sail by a furling mainsail on any size of boat. (But again for others upwind performance isn't the priority)

+1
Totally agree