Simple 230v socket and an earth connection to 12v neg?

[PaulRainbow]

What the OP effectively has is one of these : Outdoor Revolution Mobile Mains Power Unit USB

Do people who go camping connect an Earth wire to these leads and knock an Earth stake into the ground beside the tent ?

 

[Dellquay13]

This is the key and that's why you would need the GI. 44 years without is also very relevant.

I do this for a living

Thank you Paul for clarifying points of error in the article.
I had supposed my 12v neg and prop were already connected. It’s a very basic 2 batteries, 1/2/both switch, 1gm10 with standard gearbox to the shaft. I didn’t know there might be some isolation in there, between gear box and shaft? It looks coupled to me, from memory.

 

[Refueler]

What the OP effectively has is one of these : Outdoor Revolution Mobile Mains Power Unit USB

Do people who go camping connect an Earth wire to these leads and knock an Earth stake into the ground beside the tent ?

I have seen it done - guy driving stake into the ground - earthing the caravan ... but usually absolutely not.

My 35ft Summer mobile near the river has a 2m stake into the ground as we found there was stray current in the 'frame' ,,,, the possibility is 'mice' damage to a lead underneath ... Electrician did it as temporary till we can get under in better weather to check.

Before I get all sorts of advice on this ... the electrics here is crap !! Its work in progress !

 

[Dellquay13]

What the OP effectively has is one of these : Outdoor Revolution Mobile Mains Power Unit USB

Do people who go camping connect an Earth wire to these leads and knock an Earth stake into the ground beside the tent ?

Yes, that’s the principle, but made from stuff I bought from Screwfix.

 

[BabaYaga]

Unhelpful fantasising.

The OP may be content with the reassurance that he is not obliged or recommended to change anything in his installation, because his boat is old.
But surely there must be a safety reason for the requirement (for the last 15 or 20 years) to connect PE to the water on new built boats?
My scenario in post #15 was an attempt to explain why that requirement is in place, based on my understanding as a lay person (didn't seem to go down well...).
Perhaps you, as an electrician, could give us a scenario that better explains how security is enhanced by the requirement to connect PE to water aboard the boat?

 

[Dellquay13]

The OP may be content with the reassurance that he is not obliged or recommended to change anything in his installation, because his boat is old.
But surely there must be a safety reason for the requirement (for the last 15 or 20 years) to connect PE to the water on new built boats?
My scenario in post #15 was an attempt to explain why that requirement is in place, based on my understanding as a lay person (didn't seem to go down well...).
Perhaps you, as an electrician, could give us a scenario that better explains how security is enhanced by the requirement to connect PE to water aboard the boat?

I am not an expert, but AIUI the PE to Water is the main protection when using an inverter away from shore power
In my instance, I feel adding a PE to water adds more complication and other risks (extra holes in the hull, GI, anodes etc) for a potential problem from a series of ‘ifs’ better controlled by simpler checks and controls. Using a plug top mains tester each time I connect to shore power as an example.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The OP may be content with the reassurance that he is not obliged or recommended to change anything in his installation, because his boat is old.

Nothing to do with the age of his boat, as far as safety goes. He has the simplest of installations, no different to a camping lead, that's why there is no benefit to him, in his installation, on his boat.

Different installations will require a different approach and may well require a PE to water connection, such as inverters and generators etc.

But surely there must be a safety reason for the requirement (for the last 15 or 20 years) to connect PE to the water on new built boats?
My scenario in post #15 was an attempt to explain why that requirement is in place, based on my understanding as a lay person (didn't seem to go down well...).
Perhaps you, as an electrician, could give us a scenario that better explains how security is enhanced by the requirement to connect PE to water aboard the boat?

Perhaps you can explain, in the OPs circumstances, what added safety he'd get from such a connection ?

Your scenario requires an unrealistic number of failure to creat the problem you describe, but even then, the RCD would trip as soon as there is a path to neutral whilst the person is touching the case, which would be required to get an electric shock, whilst the RCD would trip and prevent that shock.

 

[BabaYaga]

Nothing to do with the age of his boat, as far as safety goes. He has the simplest of installations, no different to a camping lead, that's why there is no benefit to him, in his installation, on his boat.

Different installations will require a different approach and may well require a PE to water connection, such as inverters and generators etc.

Perhaps you can explain, in the OPs circumstances, what added safety he'd get from such a connection ?

Your scenario requires an unrealistic number of failure to creat the problem you describe, but even then, the RCD would trip as soon as there is a path to negative whilst the person is touching the case, which would be required to get an electric shock, whilst the RCD would trip and prevent that shock.

The requirement to connect PE to the water aboard the boat could have been restricted only to boats installing inverters and generators etc, but the people who wrote the ISO decided to extend it to all new built boats that take AC onboard.
I am interested in the possible reasoning behind this choice (the OP may not be, so my apologies for highjacking the thread). Understanding the reasoning behind various rules and standards will help individuals make better decisions for themselves, in my view.
So I made up a type of scenario that might explain the reasoning behind the decision to include all new built boats in the requirement, all based on my understanding. I have not expressed my own opinion on this reasoning, nor have I advised the OP what to do.
Since Alex thought my attempt was unhelpful, I invited him to come up with another scenario that would better explain the requirement. You are also invited.
About the scenario in post #15: The number of failures occurring at the same time is 2. Yes, unlikely, as I already stated.
Not quite sure what you mean by 'path to negative', did you mean to ground?
I agree the RCD would trip to prevent severe electric shock when touching, but tripping already at plug in/switch on might be seen as preferable?

 

[Dellquay13]

Now that the YM article and the need to connect all and sundry to a water PE has been discounted in my situation, the safety of my electrics seems to be down to me, my City and Guilds certificate in Portable Appliance Testing and the PAT meter in my van

 

[PaulRainbow]

The requirement to connect PE to the water aboard the boat could have been restricted only to boats installing inverters and generators etc, but the people who wrote the ISO decided to extend it to all new built boats that take AC onboard.

But they didn't, how would they know what was going to be fitted the day after the boat was built ? The options list might include an inverter, to be fitted by the dealer when he receives the boat, before delivery to the customer, for instance.

I am interested in the possible reasoning behind this choice (the OP may not be, so my apologies for highjacking the thread). Understanding the reasoning behind various rules and standards will help individuals make better decisions for themselves, in my view.

Then you're in the wrong place. No one here knows the reasoning behind the reasoning behind the decisions.

So I made up a type of scenario that might explain the reasoning behind the decision to include all new built boats in the requirement, all based on my understanding. I have not expressed my own opinion on this reasoning, nor have I advised the OP what to do.
Since Alex thought my attempt was unhelpful, I invited him to come up with another scenario that would better explain the requirement. You are also invited.

I'm not into guessing why the rules are as they are. But i do know that in the case of the OP he gains nothing by making such a connection.

About the scenario in post #15: The number of failures occurring at the same time is 2. Yes, unlikely, as I already stated.
Not quite sure what you mean by 'path to negative', did you mean to ground?

I meant neutral.

I agree the RCD would trip to prevent severe electric shock when touching, but tripping already at plug in/switch on might be seen as preferable?

In which case there was no chance of getting electrocuted, so what's the problem ?

Houses often have ground stakes for the Earth, what if that breaks ? Should be have an extra ground stake ? Oh, that might break too, maybe have 3, or more ?

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

The requirement to connect PE to the water aboard the boat could have been restricted only to boats installing inverters and generators etc, but the people who wrote the ISO decided to extend it to all new built boats that take AC onboard.
I am interested in the possible reasoning behind this choice (the OP may not be, so my apologies for high jacking the thread). Understanding the reasoning behind various rules and standards will help individuals make better decisions for themselves, in my view. Blanket coverage for equipment fits such as inverters, generators and things such as isolation transformers etc. now and sometime in the future. All bodies dealing with these sorts of rules and regulation e.g. IET etc. will update and "improve" their rules and regulations from time to time. This does not mean that previous installations or practices are unsafe or should necessarily be updated. However in certain cases, fitting an inverter for example, would require the additional PE. This does not apply to the OP's installation.
So I made up a type of scenario that might explain the reasoning behind the decision to include all new built boats in the requirement, all based on my understanding. I have not expressed my own opinion on this reasoning, nor have I advised the OP what to do.
Since Alex thought my attempt was unhelpful, I invited him to come up with another scenario that would better explain the requirement. See above. I thought that what you said was unrealistic and unhelpful to the OP. However I understand where you are coming from with a desire for knowledge.
You are also invited.
About the scenario in post #15: The number of failures occurring at the same time is 2. Yes, unlikely, as I already stated. As above. The regulations will not protect against the misuse of equipment or use of unsuitable or defective equipment and installations which have not been inspected and tested.
Not quite sure what you mean by 'path to negative', did you mean to ground?
I agree the RCD would trip to prevent severe electric shock when touching, but tripping already at plug in/switch on might be seen as preferable? This is why in all case when using any type of trailing or temporary lead or connection it should be thoroughly checked. In all cases. Again regulations won't save you from defective equipment.

I could go on into endless detail but hope the above explains some of what you asked.
The OP has stated that he is qualified in PAT testing and has equipment to do this. Nuff said!

 

[BabaYaga]

Then you're in the wrong place.

How very true. Should have known better.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have yet to read the article in YM but I did read it on Facebook this morning. I cannot comment on the electric content but I had quite a few misgivings about the corrosion side of things. The main issue is bonding: it is impossible for an anode to "see" all of the fittings that are bonded together, and as the article states, an anode can only throw for about seven times its own maximum dimension in line of sight.

Stray current corrosion is often mentioned as a problem but I do not agree with the explanation in the article. Plus, the main function of the galvanic isolator is to disconnect the always connected earth wire, without which your anode may be protecting the pontoon and every other boat connected to it. A/C leakage into the sea via metal fittings is surely extremely rare. I have yet to come across an example.

 

[PaulRainbow]

How very true. Should have known better.

You've taken those 6 words out of context.

You said "I am interested in the possible reasoning behind this choice"

No one here knows the reasoning behind the decisions, therefor you're in the wrong place (for that answer).

Apologies if i offended you.

 

[BabaYaga]

I could go on into endless detail but hope the above explains some of what you asked.
The OP has stated that he is qualified in PAT testing and has equipment to do this. Nuff said!

Thank you for your explanation, which I understand to mean that connecting PE to the water aboard the boat provides no real safety enhancement, unless equipment such as inverters, generators etc are installed.
Does this mean that on a new boat, which will have this connection as per regulation, that it can safely be disconnected, provided that non of the equipment mentioned above is installed? Which might reduce the risk of corrosion issues stemming from the shore power PE to water connection? And eliminate the need of a GI?
As an aside, I find it a little odd when you say that regulations will not protect against defective equipment.
Isn't that exactly what the regulation requiring the installation of a RCD does? Like the fan heater in the scenario.

 

[BabaYaga]

You've taken those 6 words out of context.

You said "I am interested in the possible reasoning behind this choice"

No one here knows the reasoning behind the decisions, therefor you're in the wrong place (for that answer).

Apologies if i offended you.

Since our clashes on here now lie several years back, I might have hoped for a little less aggressiveness of tone.
Of course I accept your apology.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

Thank you for your explanation, which I understand to mean that connecting PE to the water aboard the boat provides no real safety enhancement, unless equipment such as inverters, generators etc are installed.

It will always provide a "Safety enhancement" but is not necessary in the OP's case.

Does this mean that on a new boat, which will have this connection as per regulation, that it can safely be disconnected, provided that non of the equipment mentioned above is installed? Which might reduce the risk of corrosion issues stemming from the shore power PE to water connection? And eliminate the need of a GI?

No! No PE should ever be disconnected unless for testing purposes and the circuit is "Dead"

As an aside, I find it a little odd when you say that regulations will not protect against defective equipment.
Isn't that exactly what the regulation requiring the installation of a RCD does? Like the fan heater in the scenario.

Perhaps I should have said that the regulation in itself will not protect you or the equipment if the installation is incorrect or defective. There are many varieties of defect, not just earth faults!
I am going to say no more on this subject as rightly, or wrongly, I suspect that you are either naïve or are engaging in a bit of trolling. Forgive me if I am wrong.

 

[BabaYaga]

Forgive me if I am wrong.

I certainly think you are. I also suspect that you misunderstand my question regarding the PE, but as you have decided to say no more I am fine with closing exchange.

 

[lustyd]

I am interested in the possible reasoning behind this choice

I imagine it’s based on the number of unsafe inverter or generator installs where someone either didn’t know they should fit the earth or ignored it because the boat was in the water and it was inconvenient to fit one. If the earth is already there it’s already safer and certainly easier than drilling a new hole while afloat!
The chances of these things being fitted are higher these days so seems a sensible move for new boats but for old boats you’d only fit if it’s needed.

 

[billskip]

Houses often have ground stakes for the Earth, what if that breaks ? Should be have an extra ground stake ? Oh, that might break too, maybe have 3, or more ?

This depends on the incoming supply also the length of cable run, regulations state Max length of cable run per circuit. It has been known that ground electrodes have become high resistant ( fail) due to receding water table causing dryness.
As for the camping ..they possibly connect to an existing tent peg....albeit it plastic or wood.....