Should I swap to a smaller / 3rd gen anchor?

[Neeves]

You will not if you can not.....That is why my ground tackle gave me confidence that I could be more secure to the best of my ability..in case the circumstances arose when thats all I had to secure with......it seems to me that all this discussion leaves out the extreme conditions which one might find themselves in.....
Some boats have anchors that have never got wet....and some ended up on the rocks/ beach....

The difference is, between all yout science and facts the end result is the unpredictable weather.

All true,

Which is why the industry seems to work on a 3:1 safety factor for anchors, 4:1 for chain, 5:1 for shackles (and why I suggest carrying a spare snubbers). The gear should stand it - you might not and your partner/crew will question why they chose you. You are the skipper - you are responsible. There is little excuse in 2024 for missing a weather forecast, there is no excuse for thinking a forecast is a certainty - its a forecast, no certainty.

Wearing strong wind events like a medal has no place in my world. Sailing is meant to be a pleasure not part of an SAS course. Tasmania enjoys Storms once a month in the summer - we took note of forecasts, broadcast 4 times a day by SSB, and moved to locations where the strong winds were tamed.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

I’m sure Neeves will be along to explain it more detail, but I think if you experienced a rode load of 600kg (which will be a dynamic one), you would be looking to do something different, including a change of underwear. There are other options to moving.

We'll come on then. What other options?

 

[boomerangben]

Jonathan,
In your long statement, you state, "......any tension in the rode beyond 600kg - you will be moving to a different location..."
Perhaps you would like to expand on the practicalities of this theory.
I know that in my own circumstances that if I'm experiencing these sort of conditions while anchored in a Scottish Sea Loch, the last thing on my mind is going out to sea, to see if it's any better in another Sea Loch several miles away. That's why I use substantial anchors and chain.

But what sort of loads do you get in your anchor rode? If I remember correctly, you don’t experience the dynamics that lighter vessels do and therefore don’t have to deal with the dynamic loads?

 

[NormanS]

All true,

Which is why the industry seems to work on a 3:1 safety factor for anchors, 4:1 for chain, 5:1 for shackles (and why I suggest carrying a spare snubbers). The gear should stand it - you might not and your partner/crew will question why they chose you. You are the skipper - you are responsible. There is little excuse in 2024 for missing a weather forecast, there is no excuse for thinking a forecast is a certainty - its a forecast, no certainty.

Wearing strong wind events like a medal has no place in my world. Sailing is meant to be a pleasure not part of an SAS course. Tasmania enjoys Storms once a month in the summer - we took note of forecasts, broadcast 4 times a day by SSB, and moved to locations where the strong winds were tamed.

Jonathan

That would suggest that you have little or no experience of actually being anchored in strong winds. Now we know.

 

[boomerangben]

We'll come on then. What other options?

Snubbers, riding sails, having a better awareness of the weather forecast

 

[billskip]

All true,

Which is why the industry seems to work on a 3:1 safety factor for anchors, 4:1 for chain, 5:1 for shackles (and why I suggest carrying a spare snubbers). The gear should stand it - you might not and your partner/crew will question why they chose you. You are the skipper - you are responsible. There is little excuse in 2024 for missing a weather forecast, there is no excuse for thinking a forecast is a certainty - its a forecast, no certainty.

Wearing strong wind events like a medal has no place in my world. Sailing is meant to be a pleasure not part of an SAS course. Tasmania enjoys Storms once a month in the summer - we took note of forecasts, broadcast 4 times a day by SSB, and moved to locations where the strong winds were tamed.

Jonathan

So basically all these scientific facts suit your sailing conditions and abilities without consideration for different conditions which you my never find yourself in....

 

[billskip]

better awareness of the weather forecast

Ha ha ha..... tell that to Michael Fish...

 

[vyv_cox]

Four or five days ago. Big thunderstorm in an exposed anchorage. 15 kg Rocna, 8 mm chain, 35 ft boat, 7 tons displacement. 50 knot gusts, soon passed over.

On recovery the windlass was unable to lift the anchor, requiring me to motor over it to break it out. Possibly the deepest it has ever set. Mixed mud and sand seabed.

 

[billskip]

better awareness of the weather forecast

Michael Fish

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan,
In your long statement, you state, "......any tension in the rode beyond 600kg - you will be moving to a different location..."
Perhaps you would like to expand on the practicalities of this theory.
I know that in my own circumstances that if I'm experiencing these sort of conditions while anchored in a Scottish Sea Loch, the last thing on my mind is going out to sea, to see if it's any better in another Sea Loch several miles away. That's why I use substantial anchors and chain.

When the last or more recently reported storm hit the Scillies some moved others stayed put. The conditions were well forecast. Those that moved were inconvenienced (some are members here) but enjoyed uneventful weather. This that stayed, some ended up on the beach, I think some were lifted off by helicopter.

You mention 'these sorts of conditions - 600kg tension

You've measured 600kg tension in your rode, you have never mentioned that before - or in my memory.

You have chosen heavy chain to minimise the effects of strong winds. I have chosen a snubber, have you ever considered a snubber, have you ever used a snubber - if you have used one - why have you never reported what turned you against a snubber. Evan Strarzinger used snubbers in high latitudes - why not you?

If you use a snubber the snatch loads are minimised and you don't need a monster anchor - but you would not know because you have never tried a snubber.

Jonathan

 

[billskip]

When the last or more recently reported storm hit the Scillies some moved others stayed put. The conditions were well forecast. Those that moved were inconvenienced (some are members here) but enjoyed uneventful weather. This that stayed, some ended up on the beach, I think some were lifted off by helicopter.

You mention 'these sorts of conditions - 600kg tension

You've measured 600kg tension in your rode, you have never mentioned that before - or in my memory.

You have chosen heavy chain to minimise the effects of strong winds. I have chosen a snubber, have you ever considered a snubber, have you ever used a snubber - if you have used one - why have you never reported what turned you against a snubber. Evan Strarzinger used snubbers in high latitudes - why not you?

If you use a snubber the snatch loads are minimised and you don't need a monster anchor - but you would not know because you have never tried a snubber.

Jonathan

Your just trying to convince yourself.....you must have doubts......I don't wish extreme weather conditions on anyone, but I also don't agree with those that profess to have the answers to conditions never experienced.....

 

[boomerangben]

View attachment 182478
Michael Fish

I think weather forecasting has moved on a bit since then

 

[billskip]

I think weather forecasting has moved on a bit since then

At that time the BBC supposedly had the best up to date equipment available.....
Today...it can still be got wrong...especially for very localised weather conditions...

 

[vyv_cox]

I think weather forecasting has moved on a bit since then

From what I remember he was right at the time but an unforseen combination of conditions caused the low to change direction, moving it to the north instead of south. Not sure whether current forecasting would make any difference?

 

[billskip]

From what I remember he was right at the time but an unforseen combination of conditions caused the low to change direction, moving it to the north instead of south. Not sure whether current forecasting would make any difference?

A more recent statement made by the Italian air force

 

[Neeves]

Have a look at my photos showing how a large anchor is correctly set (it is often the best set anchor in the anchorage), but If it was not set because not enough force can be applied by the motor why would it not set when conditions "get worse"? It does not make sense.

Your contention is not reflected in the practical performance results. Boats such as mine with large anchors report superior performance in a wide range of conditions. Hence the phrase expressed earlier by another member that "in a gale I never wished for a smaller anchor".

I can understand the philosophy that a smaller anchor may be adequate for the needs of some, or the practical constraint that only a small anchor can be managed comfortably by some vessels, but to try and justify this limitation by claiming the performance of a smaller anchor is better has no basis in anchor trials (all these show holding power increases with increasing anchor size) or the practical reports of sailors who actually use larger anchors.

Given the reported difficulty in handling the larger anchor I think the OP would be better choosing a smaller anchor, but he would be foolish to believe a 6kg Rocna will have the same performance as a 10 kg Rocna.

Rocna's recommendation for a yacht of your size is 33kg, your anchor weighs 50kg. You have obviously never tried a 33kg anchor on your yacht - or you would have said so. On testing your anchor has the same hold as a 50kg Delta which would be the size rfecpommended for your yacht. A Rocna is rated SHHP and Delta HHP, the same as a CQR. The Rocna is almost twice as good.

Your post is meaningless.

 

[Neeves]

That would suggest that you have little or no experience of actually being anchored in strong winds. Now we know.

Exactly how do you experience rode tension of 600kg, actually it was 650kg, if you don''t anchor in strong winds. As you have never measured rode tensions - you have no ideas what it is like.

Your snide comments are meaningless.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Your just trying to convince yourself.....you must have doubts......I don't wish extreme weather conditions on anyone, but I also don't agree with those that profess to have the answers to conditions never experienced.....

See post 97.

The 650kg was achieved with no snubber and the means to reduce the tension would have been to add a snubber. Very, very simple. This is the same as NormanS heavy chain - he uses heavy chain (and lots of it). We use 2 snubbers, a bridle. The heavy chain and its catenary offer NormanS a buffer to snatch loads, in the same way our nylon snubber offers a buffer. Our catamaran would sail like a dog with NormanS heavy and long chain - we can average 10 knots over 100nm - because we don't weigh our bow down.

There are many ways to skin rabbits and there are different ways to anchor.

But I will guarantee a few 10s of meters of nylon will be factorially cheaper than many 10s of metres of heavy chain - and achieve the self same end, allow better sailing performance and leave a lot of space in the bow locker. Furthermore the snatch load dampening by nylon will be achieved with shorter scope than needed with chain allowing the yacht to close the beach and shelter.

10m of 10mm nylon is vastly superior at snatch load dampening than even 30m of 10mm chain. 30m of 10mm chain has effectively no snatch load dampening at a 600kg tension at a 5:1 scope - you would need to deploy much more chain, maybe all you have to dampen 600kg of tension and move to deep water (commonly less sheltered) to have effective catenary

Now if you have sea room to allow you to deploy 100m of chain (very possible in the outer islands of western Scotland) and if your yacht is big enough to accept that same rode - great. But many here on YBW sail yachts that would also be dogs with 100m of 10mm chain and would find seeking shelter allowing a 100m rode - difficult in the south of the UK or the Med



Of course NormanS is comfortable - he has all that chain deployed, many 100s of pounds Sterling, it removes the snatch loads from his anchor - he is as safe as houses. We can do the same with factorially less chain a decent brindle and an 8kg alloy anchor.

Most people own plastic fantastics, aka AWB's 35'/45'- all the weight has been squeezed out of them by accountants - do they really want 80kg of 100m of 6mm chain or 145kg of 100m of 8mm chain? They don't need the 8mm chain - 6mm will suffice with 30m of nylon (and the nylon will offer dampening well beyond 600kg of tension.

Though it is a personal choice and maybe some like sailing like a dog and spending money on redundant chain.

It takes all sorts.


Anticipating the questions and comments

Anchoring correctly with all the right gear, power setting and the best forecasts does not offer certainty:

You power set your anchor at full revs, for your 40' AWB, say a 30HP motor. Later an unforecast storm passes over head and you are subject to snatch loads - your anchor digs more deeply than your power set (its a great anchor - read Vyv's post above on his Rocna) but your anchor in setting more deeply mates with an old beer can, towel blown off the deck of a previous yacht, bit of seaweed - your anchor will lose hold and drag.

We always had a spare anchor on the bow for such events.

Jonathan

 

[billskip]

See post 97.

What for?
You are making alarming statements as to what others have done and not done, which to me indicates you don't really know what you are talking about.

Basically it's your posts that are as meaningless as any others because until you are in a situation when it doesn't work that's maybe when you will think twice about your theories...

 

[boomerangben]

What for?
You are making alarming statements as to what others have done and not done, which to me indicates you don't really know what you are talking about.

Basically it's your posts that are as meaningless as any others because until you are in a situation when it doesn't work that's maybe when you will think twice about your theories...

I think if you look at the work done by Neeves on anchor testing, you might find he has substantial experience. Perhaps you might like to put a load meter on your rode and find out for yourself what 600kg feels like. Neeves has.

To be clear, anchoring is not just about anchors and chain, there’s a whole aspect of seamanship that is applied as well