Should I swap to a smaller / 3rd gen anchor?

[Neeves]

Four or five days ago. Big thunderstorm in an exposed anchorage. 10 kg Rocna, 8 mm chain, 35 ft boat, 7 tons displacement. 50 knot gusts, soon passed over.

On recovery the windlass was unable to lift the anchor, requiring me to motor over it to break it out. Possibly the deepest it has ever set. Mixed mud and sand seabed.
View attachment 182477

You are not entirely wasting your time, some will take note - others will say - you should have had a bigger anchor ( obviously it would then have been easier to retrieve - and even more so if it had been 25kg).

Jonathan

 

[billskip]

@boomerangben Quote
To be clear, anchoring is not just about anchors and chain, there’s a whole aspect of seamanship that is applied as well
----‐------‐‐-----‐--
This is what I fear Neeves is lacking....

Nobody can be proved right because too many variables....but it has the possibility to be proved wrong when all the adverse conditions meet and you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am in no way belittling Neeves work and effort.
I don't need to do all the tests, I need to be as comfortable at anchor as I can be, which I was, Neeves is not proving anything to me because conditions could be that the extra kg I have saved my day...
Or the lesser kg that I swapped for ruined it.

 

[IanCC]

Four or five days ago. Big thunderstorm in an exposed anchorage. 10 kg Rocna, 8 mm chain, 35 ft boat, 7 tons displacement. 50 knot gusts, soon passed over.

On recovery the windlass was unable to lift the anchor, requiring me to motor over it to break it out. Possibly the deepest it has ever set. Mixed mud and sand seabed.
View attachment 182477

.. and, as far as i can tell, Rocna would recommend 15kg for your boat.

 

[vyv_cox]

.. and, as far as i can tell, Rocna would recommend 15kg for your boat.

I think you are correct. Cannot check now as it is underwater. Probably my mistake.

 

[NormanS]

But what sort of loads do you get in your anchor rode? If I remember correctly, you don’t experience the dynamics that lighter vessels do and therefore don’t have to deal with the dynamic loads?

When the last or more recently reported storm hit the Scillies some moved others stayed put. The conditions were well forecast. Those that moved were inconvenienced (some are members here) but enjoyed uneventful weather. This that stayed, some ended up on the beach, I think some were lifted off by helicopter.

You mention 'these sorts of conditions - 600kg tension

You've measured 600kg tension in your rode, you have never mentioned that before - or in my memory.

You have chosen heavy chain to minimise the effects of strong winds. I have chosen a snubber, have you ever considered a snubber, have you ever used a snubber - if you have used one - why have you never reported what turned you against a snubber. Evan Strarzinger used snubbers in high latitudes - why not you?

If you use a snubber the snatch loads are minimised and you don't need a monster anchor - but you would not know because you have never tried a snubber.

Jonathan

The fact that you say that I have never used a snubber is wrong, and casts doubt on the veracity of some of your statements.

 

[zoidberg]

Maybe you two should get a room....

 

[zoidberg]

'Should I swap to a smaller/3rd gen anchor...?'

Is this what you have in mind?

There would be little problem stowing enough chain. Most bathroom suppliers could provide shiny stainless short-link stuff....

 

[noelex]

While have experienced some extreme weather at anchor and been grateful that we have held when others have not been as fortunate, for most users the major advantage of a larger modern anchor is the ability to safely use locations where the substrate is less favourable, plus in more reasonable substrates the ability to use shorter scopes than would otherwise be necessary.

The higher holding power produced by a larger anchor means that the grip can still be acceptable and safe when anchoring in conditions that will reduce the holding power of all anchors, such as less favourable substrates or at shorter scopes. This opens up many locations that would otherwise be unsuitable or perhaps only safe when not anchoring overnight.

You will also avoid the unnecessary extreme restrictions that are sometimes voiced on this forum by the proponents of particularly light ground tackle, such as never using a scope of less than 5:1 when anchoring overnight, never anchoring in weed, routinely deploying two anchors and the importance of changing the anchor when encountering substrates such as softer mud.

Finally, there is the suggestion from some advocates of very light ground tackle that you should never need to anchor in over 30 knots. I am still not sure how that one works, unless you are cruising in a location with marinas or mooring balls close by or perhaps you rarely anchor and only choose to do so when conditions are settled.

 

[noelex]

Let me clarify and reiterate:

I never said a 10kg steel anchor of the same design as a 6kg anchor would not have a higher hold.

Jonathan

I am pleased to hear there is some common ground .

 

[Neeves]

The fact that you say that I have never used a snubber is wrong, and casts doubt on the veracity of some of your statements.

I'm not sure why my poor memory, if that is the case, casts doubts on the veracity of my statements. if you have posted the details of your snubber, snubbers, it did not fit in my limited memory bank - maybe you can provide a link

So why not tell us about you use of snubbers, or a snubber. Most of the background is with lightweight fantastics (or not fantastic). It would be refreshing to learn how the other half live.

Jonathan

 

[Metalicmike]

If your chain isn't long enough your anchor wont work, my brother an ex master use to say that you don't need an anchor if your chain is long enough (don't think you would be very popular in anchorages).

 

[Refueler]

This is a bit like asking if you should replace your 10 year old Merc with a new BMW. Yes, if you want something newer, with a more modern design and if you are prepared to spend the money. No if you find the old one does all you need and you'd prefer to save the cash. The main difference is that cars wear out but generally anchors don't, so if it's a genuine CQR very likely it will still be working as good as when it was new in 50 years from now.

I think it comes down to your personal preference.

Asking on the forum about which anchor is best is is rather like asking if it's better to be Catholic or Protestant, or to support Man City or Man United. Some people have strong views and firmly-held beliefs.

I was with you till you put those 3 letters BMW !! Over here - they are the car most involved in accidents .... The Latvian BMW Owners Club had a drive round Latvia 4 or 5 yrs ago - and stated - Point of the Drive - was to show that BMW drivers can be safe !! Yeh - well that lasted about 5 mins !! As I heard - they had an accident !!

I have the same CQR (actually its a Holdfast Plough same design but different metal make-up)......... holds my 4 ton MS .....

For the OP - yes its an overkill .... but when needed - might be glad of its overkill !!

 

[Refueler]

Any of the 6kg modern anchors will do the job. If you don't want to pay Rocna prices then an Epsilon is a good choice, and as suggested earlier 6mm chain and 12mm rope would be good.

One of the reasons why you see lots of CQRs and copies is that the majority of people do not place much demand on their anchors (if any!) and they work well in most common UK seabeds. However size plays a part as it is the flukes that create the holding and the CQR flukes are poor in this respect, hence the need for greater size.

mmmmm funny that .... I get to see a lot of cruisers who do a lot of long distance and also a lot of anchoring ... the two anchors I note so often are :

Bruce
or
Plough (CQR or copy)

I don't say they are better .. I don't argue that a more modern anchor cannot do better ... in fact I would hope it does. But what I do understand having spent my life at sea ... is that a combination of design and weight makes an anchor work. Its no good having a light anchor if its lightness allows it to slide / skip the bottom ...
The polugh anchor may be old and bettered by modern gear - but it still has that point angled down along with the weight specifically to start the anchor 'ploughing' in ......

Oh Dear !! I've done what I promised myself a long time ago - NOT to get into anchor discussions about plough anchors !! Its a road to headaches !!

 

[Refueler]

If your chain isn't long enough your anchor wont work, my brother an ex master use to say that you don't need an anchor if your chain is long enough (don't think you would be very popular in anchorages).

Unfortunately the Big Ship scenario doesn't hold fully on a yacht as you cannot carry the size and weight of chain required to replicate that.

Yes the ship relies on its chain - the chain relies on the anchor. Basically the chain catenary being an arc absorbs the ships motion and by time the action has migrated to the anchor its near zero.

But a yacht does exert pull on an anchor - even with full chain rode ... BUT the chain rode will absorb the snatches and veering of the yacht better than any rope rode.

I have a photo of my 4 ton boat anchored in Priory Bay .... I use full chain ... the tide / flow changed after anchoring and she settled on the hard packed stony bottom ... the same Plough anchor as still on that boat today - can be seen under the bow ... with chain rode in an arc ...
That anchor never moved after it was dropped ...

People try to come up with all sorts of 'anti-plough' comments and so-so when that photo is posted - but the fact is plain to see in the photo. If that was a rope rode ???

 

[Mister E]

Refuelled in that situation my anchor would not drag as I would have dug a gurt big hole to put it in.

 

[Refueler]

Refuelled in that situation my anchor would not drag as I would have dug a gurt big hole to put it in.

You don't know Priory Bay then .... if you can dig a hole in compacted stones ......

 

[bedouin]

Inspired by this thread I just checked the cost of a Rocna Mk2 sized to fit my boat. HOW MUCH???? I can buy a whole boat for that

Has anyone seen a recent comparative review of the various new anchor types?

 

[NormanS]

I'm not sure why my poor memory, if that is the case, casts doubts on the veracity of my statements. if you have posted the details of your snubber, snubbers, it did not fit in my limited memory bank - maybe you can provide a link

So why not tell us about you use of snubbers, or a snubber. Most of the background is with lightweight fantastics (or not fantastic). It would be refreshing to learn how the other half live.

Jonathan

You state that I have never used a snubber. That's factionally incorrect, but I'm not going to bore the pants off people about my infrequent use of same, or indeed the minutiae of the details of its construction. As it happens, I rig a riding sail more often, which with my particular boat, prevents the yawing, for which you seem to advocate the use of a snubber. Different ships, different long splices.

 

[vyv_cox]

If your chain isn't long enough your anchor wont work, my brother an ex master use to say that you don't need an anchor if your chain is long enough (don't think you would be very popular in anchorages).

Years ago I proved this statement to be incorrect. I was able to drag my 65 metres of 8nmm chain along a dirt boatyard. I guess I might pull 50 kg, a tiny figure compared with what would be generated in a good blow.

 

[Neeves]

Years ago I proved this statement to be incorrect. I was able to drag my 65 metres of 8nmm chain along a dirt boatyard. I guess I might pull 50 kg, a tiny figure compared with what would be generated in a good blow.

I've done exactly the same, except on a beach with wet sand, with the same result. It took some effort to get it 'started' but once its moving its much easier (I think the water in the sand reduces the frictional resistance).

I use the concept that a fit person has the strength of his body weight.

Most modern anchors will set and begin to hold even at very extreme scope - 2:1 - as long as you are, slow, patient and there is no chop. Once the toe engages the rest of the fluke will follow.

Jonathan