Sheer folly? Adding a bowsprit & cutter conversion.

[Tintin]

Thought I would post this to get some thoughts.

I am pondering on whether to add a bowsprit and 2nd jib to my Leisure 27. I can think of many reasons not to think about this, for instance cost, why not get another yacht that has it already, why etc.. etc…
I guess a key question is why am I thinking this?, so here goes….
I like the Leisure 27 – great internal and external. I can sail it single-handed, I can live in it, its comfortable, I can manoeuvre it into marinas and onto moorings on my own under engine and (with the latter) under sail, and I know how it all works having spent many hours getting it all working (rewire etc.. etc..). The thought of doing all that with another yacht just leaves me thinking about loads more wasted sailing opportunities.
But what I don’t like about it is the weather helm, so pushing the balance of sail area forward should help.
And (as daft as it may seems) there seems to be something very attractive about having a bowsprit and cutter rig.
Most of my sailing is coastal with the odd run further afield, however (once work allows) I want to go a lot further. I could of course get a different yacht when that time comes, and there are perhaps good reasons to think about that (long keel, larger, more space etc…) but I keep coming back to the fact that I know my yacht and know how it works – better the devil you know etc….

So any thoughts about the wisdom of adding a bowsprit and 2nd jib, the cost, key reasons why not to?
Over to those more knowledgeable than I……

Regards
chris

 

[robertj]

bowsprit

hi,

not an expert but a few questions need to be asked.

Masthead or fractional?
weather helm all the time?
age of sails?
roller reefing?
Original main adn genoa?

Before embarking on the cutter rig option I would suggest a few inquiries to the owner club if there is one, or to a local sailmaker and tell him of your weather helm probs.

Its definately too much mainsail and not enought foresail.

The problem is that if one alters the sail configuration that could lead to healing too much if fitting the cutter option.
Blown sails also contributes to the healing thus inducing weather helm.

There are a few problems when altering, but, with a second sail futher forward one can balance better with good sails but not so if the sails are old and in need of replacement.

Sorry this is of no help but further investigation is necessary to avoid possible expenditure. The cost of all you work may be unecessary if its possible sail chages and a change of sailing habits, reef main alot earlier than genoa etc.

bob

 

[Bajansailor]

Sounds like an excellent plan - although you could perhaps consider keeping her as a sloop rig (less hassle and expense) and simply adding a bow sprit to move the centre of effort of the headsail further forward.
Do you currently have a turnbuckle connecting the forestay to the stemhead? If not, then you might get enough extra length just by adding a turnbuckle.
We did this on a previous boat, and it helped considerably re weather helm.

 

[chrishelen]

Cutter rig

Hi chris,

I have a 24foot Maurice Griffiths designed sloop,i have a 4ft bowsprit,i sail her as a sloop but she was originaly a cutter,from time to time i sail her as a cutter,all this involves is moving the babystay up to the inboard end of the bowsprit and changing the foresail to a yankee and hanking on the staysail,it all takes about an hour,i think she points a bit better as a cutter but i dont think there is much in it,except a few more strings to pull.

Why dont you try a bowsprit and sail her as a sloop and see if there is any change to your weather helm before you go to the expense of extra sails,you might be pleasantly surprised.

chris.

 

[mdonnelly]

www.leisureowners.org.uk
Always helpful when I owned a Leisure17

 

[Refueler]

I am considering it for my Sunrider 25 ....

Here my artistic skills with paint ... bowsprit of 3ft ..

and as original without ..

I like the look and also the possibility of different combinations to suit conditions.

As to weather helm ... it is commonly assumed that reduce main, increase foresail - but not always ... on my boat I can do that and makes no difference ... the biggest effect to reduce weather helm is in fact to reduce genny so that genny CofE moves fwd ... the amount of heel has a significant effect as well as boat shape in water changes and becomes more and more non-symetrical ....
It's often a sign of boat being too hard pressed.

 

[haydude]

Folly

I would not do it.

Considered your aspiration to do more than coastal sailing, a 27ft boat is small. There is a world of difference between a 27ft and a 34-36ft. Not just length, by beam, abitability, comfort, usability in bad weather. 27ft in a force 7, you've got to wear your oilies, on a 36ft footer you hardly get seaspray back to the cockpit.

By adding a fixed bowsprit in your case you would also increase the LOA of your boat, potentially increasing berthing cost and reducing your chances to sell your boat in future because of that. In fact buyers not only cosider purchase price, but also running costs, being marina's fees a significant one.

 

[DownWest]

Without altering the existing rig, you could mount a bowsprit at a slight angle so the forward end is centered, sort out the shrouds and bobstay and get a second hand jib(or borrow one) to try the idea out. If successful make it more permanent and perhaps a new sail.
My new boat has a folding bowsprit, hinges at the aft end. Mainly for trailing, but usefull for cheaper marina fees. The forestay is to the stemhead and the jib is set on a furler (not reefing, just in or out)
Just ideas.
Andrew

Might look nice too, but that is a personal opinion

 

[neil_s]

What about rigging up your spinny pole through a ring at the stem head and flying a cruising shute from it?

Neil

 

[William_H]

Weather Hlem

Nigel is right weather helm when sailing hard (heeled) is not about balance of sail centre of effort versus keel centre of effort but is about the shape of the hull in the water and the drive from the sails moving outboard compared to hull drag. Reduce the heel and reduce the weather helm. Reduce the heel by reducing jib size and also main size.

If however you have weather helm at really low wind speed then that is about centre of effort of the sails an d more jib may help.
The only reason to go cutter rig is to add more sail area for better performance in light winds or down wind. In which case what you really want is something more like an asymetric kite on a bowsprit or spin pole. AKA a code zero jib or a variety of other names.

So it is my guess weather helm is a problem in stiff breeze, you should flatten sails more or buy new ones especially jib. Or consider trying a smaller flat hank on jib. If you are battling with a half rolled furling jib then that is where your heel is coming from.
Yes I am biased against furlers olewill

 

[Tintin]

Hello,

Thanks for all the comments.

In answer to RobertJ, its masthead, weather helm is most of the time (more on this in a minute), the sail are approx 5 yrs old, it has roller reefing, and I don;t think the sails are original


The weather helm exists whether heeling hard or soft, or none at all, but this is a tender yacht. Reducing main area does work to minimise weather helm and also helps with the heeling, but I do lose speed overall, however getting the balance right does significantly increase the speed from 4 to 6 knots. A big difference, and if you've ever lived with 4 knots avergae then 6 feels like formula one territory.

So I can be on one reef in F3/4 to get balance or 2 in F4/5/6, and all is good, however its a fine balance, requires a lot of constant attention to sheet, traveller etc... especially between blows.

I guess as with many things in sailing, nirvana is a long way off, so I guess like it or lump it.

Thanks for all the replies,

chris

 

[aquaplane]

Leisure stopped making the 27 because the rudder didn't work properly, they stretched it to 29' and that cured the problem. Perhaps you should add 2' to the cockpit? (I mean buy a 29' not start on DIY).

I know where you are coming from about the boat, my parents bought one in 1979, it was a grand boat to sail after the Westerly Windrush, but what isn't? IIRC the original sails were Rockall, but that may have changed. You don't have "Fari" do you?

When they moved it to the Clyde in 1982 it lasted ½ a season before they decided to get something bigger and more comfortable to live on. Thinking long term I would go bigger.