Sextant shortage

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Considering the gentle mockery that occasionally surfaces here when someone seeks guidance on buying or use of a marine sextant, peeps might be intrigued to know that the RYA Shop is currently completely sold out of sextants, and that other surprised suppliers report sales of the 'sun gun' instrument are way up this year.

There has been a catchphrase within the RYA's Training Department for a good number of years that "We don't want to teach the history of navigation", which gets trotted out whenever someone raises the question of why 'astro' - so long the marque of a professionally-skilled sea navigator - has been systematically 'dumbed-down' in the RYA's Ocean syllabus. One wonders if those uttering this 'quick quip' are themselves not up to standard in the respected skills of 'sun-gunnery'.

Even the fairly-esteemed writer of the RYA's Astro book - just launched - has recommended on these forums, to anyone considering an ocean passage, to 'get a GPS'. Fair enough. The Fellow goes on to suggest that a sextant ( and the know-how to use it effectively ) is better relegated to the role of an interesting toy. Hmmmm.

After GPS, AIS, radar, chartplotter and autopilot is mastered, what is left but to study, practice, and derive satisfaction from the 'masterclass' level of ocean navigation, Astro?

It seems to me that sailing peeps are choosing to raise their game, in this regard, when considering an transocean trip. And a solitary single sun position line on a >600nm passage is hardly likely to meet the need. It rather appears as though the sailing public, seeking to increase personal skills and seamanship, is choosing to reject that viewpoint.

Overheard recently at a Navigation Conference, uttered by a noted Yachtmaster Examiner - "I had what we call in the trade a 'Grand Slam' the other week. I failed all four candidate Yachtmasters...."

In a discussion on secondary navigation systems for shipping, in an IMO context, it was commented that aviation navigation had long been committed to the principle of dropping into 'reversionary navigation' modes, should the primary system fail. Such navigators/pilots are expected to continue, using such procedures, without hazarding the aircraft in any way. The same has always been true of marine navigation. It was mentioned, however, by an RYA representative that 'many of us feel that failure of the GPS would constitute an emergency situation'.

Failure of the GPS an 'emergency'?

Perhaps it's our esteemed 'National Governing Body' that's getting a little out of step with what's required.

:)
 
Proper Navigators

Considering the gentle mockery that occasionally surfaces here when someone seeks guidance on buying or use of a marine sextant, peeps might be intrigued to know that the RYA Shop is currently completely sold out of sextants, and that other surprised suppliers report sales of the 'sun gun' instrument are way up this year.

There has been a catchphrase within the RYA's Training Department for a good number of years that "We don't want to teach the history of navigation", which gets trotted out whenever someone raises the question of why 'astro' - so long the marque of a professionally-skilled sea navigator - has been systematically 'dumbed-down' in the RYA's Ocean syllabus. One wonders if those uttering this 'quick quip' are themselves not up to standard in the respected skills of 'sun-gunnery'.

Even the fairly-esteemed writer of the RYA's Astro book - just launched - has recommended on these forums, to anyone considering an ocean passage, to 'get a GPS'. Fair enough. The Fellow goes on to suggest that a sextant ( and the know-how to use it effectively ) is better relegated to the role of an interesting toy. Hmmmm.

After GPS, AIS, radar, chartplotter and autopilot is mastered, what is left but to study, practice, and derive satisfaction from the 'masterclass' level of ocean navigation, Astro?

It seems to me that sailing peeps are choosing to raise their game, in this regard, when considering an transocean trip. And a solitary single sun position line on a >600nm passage is hardly likely to meet the need. It rather appears as though the sailing public, seeking to increase personal skills and seamanship, is choosing to reject that viewpoint.

Overheard recently at a Navigation Conference, uttered by a noted Yachtmaster Examiner - "I had what we call in the trade a 'Grand Slam' the other week. I failed all four candidate Yachtmasters...."

In a discussion on secondary navigation systems for shipping, in an IMO context, it was commented that aviation navigation had long been committed to the principle of dropping into 'reversionary navigation' modes, should the primary system fail. Such navigators/pilots are expected to continue, using such procedures, without hazarding the aircraft in any way. The same has always been true of marine navigation. It was mentioned, however, by an RYA representative that 'many of us feel that failure of the GPS would constitute an emergency situation'.

Failure of the GPS an 'emergency'?

Perhaps it's our esteemed 'National Governing Body' that's getting a little out of step with what's required.

:)

"The sextant, of all astronomical instruments, is especially adapted to the purpose of the navigator, and for this reason it is incumbent upon him to render himself in every way with its principle and make."
Wrinkles in Practical Navigation by S T S Lecky, Master Mariner

Like Captain Lecky I do not consider anyone who has not so rendered himself to be a proper navigator.
 
In a discussion on secondary navigation systems for shipping, in an IMO context, it was commented that aviation navigation had long been committed to the principle of dropping into 'reversionary navigation' modes, should the primary system fail. Such navigators/pilots are expected to continue, using such procedures, without hazarding the aircraft in any way.

Perhaps worh noting, though, that the fallback options for aircraft are also electronic: inertial systems for "navigation" and VOR/DME for "pilotage". I am pretty sure that 747s don't carry sextants or crew who could use them.

It was mentioned, however, by an RYA representative that 'many of us feel that failure of the GPS would constitute an emergency situation'.

Failure of the GPS an 'emergency'?

Harumph. Ridiculous. That's like describing engine failure as an emergency. I am very happy indeed to use GPS as my primary navigation system when sailing - or when flying - but anyone who can't cope if it goes down really shouldn't be out there.
 
I have got the sextant, read the books but do not feel confident in its use, I think I could do with a bit of tuition, I have contacted a couple of people but have been quoted rediculous fees to learn the black art, does anybody still do classroom courses?
 
does anybody still do classroom courses?
Classroom courses for YM Ocean will teach you how to work out the results. To learn to take the sights you need to get out there and do it. Getting a sight is easy, getting it accurate takes a bit of practice.

Get, or make, a sight reduction form you can work with. I have only ever taken sights in the Northern hemisphere summer so I have designed a form that doesn't require me to deal with negative declinations for example. I normally only use the sun so lunar corrections are out, as is correction for upper limb and my hand has never been so steady that the difference between Total Correction tables and individual corrections is significant.

I'm sure that will infuriate the purists but it worked for me when the sextant was my primary means of navigation and is quite adequate now as a backup.
 
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I have got the sextant, read the books but do not feel confident in its use, I think I could do with a bit of tuition, I have contacted a couple of people but have been quoted rediculous fees to learn the black art, does anybody still do classroom courses?
There used to be a course run by a chap called "Stokey" someone or other, which took place on one of the UK/Spain ferry runs over the course of 4 days I think. It included practical astro as well as theory. I'm sure the chap had a website but can't for the life of me find it now.

But whatever, it was very reasonably priced and very well regarded. Perhaps another forumite has the details? Although I can use astro nav, I'm very slow, by the time I've succesfully calculated where we are, I'm in another Ocean altogether! Might think about doing the course myself if it still runs.

Cheers, Brian.
 
The best tip is to turn the sextant upside down and bring the horizon to the sun, it's much easier than finding the sun and bringing it down. Then turn it over to fine tune. Remember to adjust the shades accordingly.

We carry the relevant books for manual calculation but tend to use Astrocalc for the calculations - very easy. We have the program on two laptops.
 
He (Stokey) is associated with one of the schools and it "can" be on the Pride of Bilbao for part of the course according to a web site I saw a few days ago.
I've opted to do the RYA Ocean shore based bit at Mustang Sailing in Sussex (January) which is easier for me to commute to and then wait for a delivery with another school to get the qualifying passage and, hopefully, lots of practice overseen by an instructor in order to consolidate.
 
Considering the gentle mockery that occasionally surfaces here when someone seeks guidance on buying or use of a marine sextant, peeps might be intrigued to know that the RYA Shop is currently completely sold out of sextants, and that other surprised suppliers report sales of the 'sun gun' instrument are way up this year.

There has been a catchphrase within the RYA's Training Department for a good number of years that "We don't want to teach the history of navigation", which gets trotted out whenever someone raises the question of why 'astro' - so long the marque of a professionally-skilled sea navigator - has been systematically 'dumbed-down' in the RYA's Ocean syllabus. One wonders if those uttering this 'quick quip' are themselves not up to standard in the respected skills of 'sun-gunnery'.

Even the fairly-esteemed writer of the RYA's Astro book - just launched - has recommended on these forums, to anyone considering an ocean passage, to 'get a GPS'. Fair enough. The Fellow goes on to suggest that a sextant ( and the know-how to use it effectively ) is better relegated to the role of an interesting toy. Hmmmm.

After GPS, AIS, radar, chartplotter and autopilot is mastered, what is left but to study, practice, and derive satisfaction from the 'masterclass' level of ocean navigation, Astro?

It seems to me that sailing peeps are choosing to raise their game, in this regard, when considering an transocean trip. And a solitary single sun position line on a >600nm passage is hardly likely to meet the need. It rather appears as though the sailing public, seeking to increase personal skills and seamanship, is choosing to reject that viewpoint.

Overheard recently at a Navigation Conference, uttered by a noted Yachtmaster Examiner - "I had what we call in the trade a 'Grand Slam' the other week. I failed all four candidate Yachtmasters...."

In a discussion on secondary navigation systems for shipping, in an IMO context, it was commented that aviation navigation had long been committed to the principle of dropping into 'reversionary navigation' modes, should the primary system fail. Such navigators/pilots are expected to continue, using such procedures, without hazarding the aircraft in any way. The same has always been true of marine navigation. It was mentioned, however, by an RYA representative that 'many of us feel that failure of the GPS would constitute an emergency situation'.

Failure of the GPS an 'emergency'?

Perhaps it's our esteemed 'National Governing Body' that's getting a little out of step with what's required.

:)


You are absolutely correct. There is this horrific hidden agenda in place to dumb down, to disinform, to disempower, to disable and ultimately to make subservient. The watering down of the syllabuses of study for yachtmasters is a very good example of this process. I shudder to think what the RYA syllabus for the Yachtmaster Ocean ticket might be like today with all the pruning I have been told they have carried out.

I hold the old ticket since 1971,( Certificate of Competency, YACHTMASTER (OCEAN) ) issued by the then Board of Trade and registered at the office of the registrar general of shipping and seamen, and granted after sitting exams with a syllabus as long as your arm, in other words, the Real Mc Koy !

I have just accessed from my archives a copy of the original syllabus of studies for the Navigation Paper under Merchant Shipping Notice M.534 Appendix B.

it reads:~

YACHTMASTER OCEAN CERTIFICATE
A. Written Examination
Navigation (3 hours)


(a) To obtain the deviation of the compass by time azimuth of a heavenly body or amplitude of the sun by means of tables , diagrams, or any other method the candidate may select.

9b) The use of the traverse table to obtain the position at any time , given compass course and errors, the run recorded by log or calculated by time and estimated speed, the allowance for current and leeway.

(c) To find the latitude by meridian altitude of a heavenly body and to calculate the approximate altitude for setting on a sextant to obtain a meridian altitude.

(d) From the observation of a heavenly body near or out of the meridian to find the direction of a position line and a position through which it passes by direct calculation or by using any short method table.

(e) To obtain a position by the combination of any two observations with or without a run.

(f) The care of chronometers and other timepeices , rating and comparison, Radio time signals, time keeping at sea. Standard and local times, the time of rising, meridian passage, and setting of heavenly bodies.


note.
notice there is no mention of using gagetry...the only concession is the use of radio signals, which first had to be recieved, then tuned and filtered, then had to be converted into bearings, which then had to be corrected, which then had to be plotted on the chart. Phew !:eek:

You cannot be surprised that Ocean Yachtmasters of our era regard the RYA the way we do...with utter contempt...:rolleyes:
 
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many thanks, i've always fancied learning astro and this looks like a great way of doing it.

You need to have the complete kit for it which is:~

A really good sextant, preferably fitted with light to read the arc.
Two mechanical stop watches for day use.
Two luminous stop watches for night use.
A chronometer. Mechanical or Elrectronic.
A copy of Nories or Burtons.
The Admiralty Almanack for the current year.
Foolscap paper.
:D
 
You cannot be surprised that Ocean Yachtmasters of our era regard the RYA the way we do...with utter contempt...:rolleyes:
A little OTT I think

I took the YM Ocean exam in 1973 (I failed, my sun position put me in the middle of Dartmoor). I don't recall having to use ex-meridian tables so maybe things were changing even then.

I can't say 6 wpm of morse by light or 4 wpm of semaphore was ever a lot of use, then or since. The sight test to ensure you could distinguish red white and green lights really ought to still be in there but the biggest problem with the BoT exam was that you could get the ticket without even taking a rowing boat around the local lake.

I re-took the exam after the RYA had taken over and found it a much more demanding process.

I would say an oral exam with an experienced yachtsman interrogating you on planning and management of an ocean passage and your knowledge of world winds and currents, plus working sights under real conditions is a lot better assessment of one's ability to skipper a yacht across an ocean than being able to work out a haversine formula and show you can use Norie's.

The parts of the old syllabus that have been dropped have been replaced by things more relevant to today's world.

I doubt anyone who has sat a YM Offshore practical exam would agree that the RYA system is worthy of contempt.
 
note.
notice there is no mention of using gagetry...the only concession is the use of radio signals, which first had to be recieved, then tuned and filtered, then had to be converted into bearings, which then had to be corrected, which then had to be plotted on the chart. Phew !:eek:

You cannot be surprised that Ocean Yachtmasters of our era regard the RYA the way we do...with utter contempt...:rolleyes:
Sorry to read you are having some difficulty keeping up with the times. I hope you don't drop your sextant over the side ..... or spill coffee on you log tables .... or your slide rule snaps.

Oh, sorry, you are up with the times after all using a computer to communicate with others on this forum. Just as well, as the telegram service was phased out some years ago.
 
The parts of the old syllabus that have been dropped have been replaced by things more relevant to today's world.

I doubt anyone who has sat a YM Offshore practical exam would agree that the RYA system is worthy of contempt.
Quite right, Snowleopard. But I fear you will have difficulty convincing those who sat the exam 30 years ago and are now basing their assessment on hearsay alone.
 
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