Same old, same old

I have been incompetent, certainly - and at the town quay.
Twer in 1976, it were, on a friends little gaff cutter. we were stuck up there for a fortnight at least. The problems were a long keel, a stuart turner and a long bowsprit. We tried to work out how tto escape without putting the sprit through somebodies cabin light or worse, taking turning circle, engine stopping mid manouver, wind and tide into consideration. We'd go ashore to argue it over in the pub and even did dotted lines on paper with cruet assistance. Full of courage we returned and found the tide or wind had changed and we'd have to wait til the following day. He eventually got away by just letting everything go, putting the tiller over and closing his eyes.
Wasn't that what everybody did in those days?
Furthermore the same thing seemed to be happening in the lock at Ouistrehamm 3 weeks ago and that's by the French with their compulsory training.
I haven't really got a point to make - I just thought I'd join in.
May all your bumps be little ones...Spuddy

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: RYA and legislation

I'm a RYA powerboat instructor and belong to a YC that is a teaching establishment, within our club we encourge members to take the RYA PB2 and safety boat courses so that they can drive the club launches on rescue duties. Over the years I have "instructed" 100's of yachties/mobo drivers/RNLI/HMGC/Local ports authorities and the one thing I can say with out question is that they have all both enjoyed the course and more importantly say "they have leant something"

Some of the candidates have 1000's of sea miles under their belts and still say they learnt something.

I think it's a little sad that many people with in our sport (mobo or raggie) adopt the attitude that they don't need to do a "course". IMHO this attitude tells me that they believe there is nothing that a course could teach them. This attitude filters through so many different aspects of our sport, the RNLI offer free advice on safety equipment levels, life jackets etc and still the take up is low because of this all pervading excuse of I don't need to know, there's nothing "they" can tell me I don't already know. After nearly 40 years of commercial fishing, sailing, teaching etc if there's one thing I have learnt is I definately don't know it all. In fact the more I learn, the more I realise how little I know?

To finish this (small) rant I believe that it is only a matter of time before some form of "ticketing" comes in to our sport, it will be driven by the insurance companies, local authorities and the wider EU, after all where else in our society can you be in command/control of several/many tons traveling at anywhere between 5 & 50 mph without even the most basic of training/licencing.

As for the type of sea going or tidal ticket required it should include a basic knowledge of the ColRegs, Navigation, VHF/DSC, and RYA PB2 because it doesn't matter a squat about whether you have got the sails pulling correctly, that just means you don't get where your going as fast as you thought. Most problems occur when the engine is being used.

To break the above down, if you have the basic
Colregs-marine highway code,
Navigation-getting from A to B with out kerb stones and sign posts,
VHF-being able to ask advice or call for help,
PB2-knowing how to operate any boat under power

We have basically got it cracked. IMHO.

The only thing left to argue about is which flags (defaced) or otherwise should be flown<s>.

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: RYA and legislation

it doesn't matter a squat about whether you have got the sails pulling correctly, that just means you don't get where your going as fast as you thought. Most problems occur when the engine is being used

A bizarre remark IMHO. Handling a modern fin keeler under power is childs play compared to handling under sail in close quarters. Competent raggies can still get home when the donk stops without calling for assistance, while the inexperienced are far more likely to lose control and ram you under sail than under power.

I certainly don't want powerboat training thank you very much.

- N




<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</A></font size=1>
 
Re: Really sorry I spoke!!

Wow!.... I got far more than I bargained for when I started this post!

Interestingly enough, I am very much against any legistlation but was simply wondering if I was being too firmly anchored in my views and with a change in the 'culture' of sailing since I began sailing some 45 years ago, perhaps it was time to begin considering something happening and coming to terms with the need for it...... but I am still not totally convinced of the need for legistlation. Perhaps the thing that worries me most is that I would not be able to open the odd bottle on board without worrying about being pulled up for tippling in charge of a boat!

I should also say that I have nothing against motorboats.... I have owned and sailed / skippered everything from 14 foot speedboats to 100 foot luxury motor cruisers, and owned sailing boats from little dinghys to a 72 foot shooner and am in the process of upgrading to a 92 foot motorsailer..... and here comes the crunch.... I do not have a single certificate to my name! I have never had professional crew for any of my boats and do not intend doing so for the new one either (perhaps partly because I am too tight?), yet I have sailed the world and as a youngster growing up in Lymington I have raced all sorts of boats up to and including crewing in the Admirals cup a number of times and offshore powerboat racing! So, you see I don't have any extra strong leaning towards sailing as opposed to motorboating...... It just happens to be a fact to be faced that people who know little to nothing about boats will normally decide to purchase a motor cruiser rather than a sailing boat and will often take to the water with little training, so they will naturally be the more inept on the water..... Just yesterday I was watching a large new Sunseeker with twin engines and bowthruster making an absolute pigs ear of coming alongside. Who let him loose so easily with such a lethal machine?

Anyway..... As I said, I am amazed at the amount of postings on this subject and the amount of passion in the subject! I am overwhelmed, but still no wiser on what the answer should be!

Lymington Pugwash

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: Thats because there is

no real answer.

In other countries regulation appears to do little to stop little prangs or larger incidents. Certainly the attitude to little knocks and bumps in French marinas is a bit more relaxed than in the UK.

In the UK part of the problem is caused by powers beyond our control. The main thing being the growth in numbers partaking without much growth in facilities. That leads to high density of sailors/moorings in more and more crowded waters and that creates conflicts. Beginers start out in bigger boats than used to be the case, in fact boats are just getting bigger in general and for many sailing isn't a passion it's just another lifestyle/leisure choice so the mundane practise that is required never happens.





<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: Really sorry I spoke!!

Now Cycling backwards I see /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/colspics> Cols Picture Album</A>
 
Re: RYA and legislation

There are other ways to learn things than going on a course, often more cost-effectively. If I want to brush up on colregs there are plenty of books I can read, rather that spending a load of cash for someone to tell me. I agree there is always more to learn, but there are more ways of doing it than courses, so don't be so hard on everyone who doesn't think they need a course.

As for the "ticketing" I'm inclined to agree it's a matter of time. I'm unsure whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. The fact I've spent most of the year repairing damage caused by other people would lead me to say yes, but then I've only ever done a VHF course in all my years sailing which was expensive enough, and would no doubt get clobbered by the introduction of a ticket.

I do, however take issue with the comment about it not mattering squat about the sails pulling correctly. On my boat at least the sails are the primary propulsion, and one hell of a lot more powerful than the engine. Too many problems are caused by being able to get yourself into situations with an engine that you can't get out of without one. If I needed to get out of a difficult spot against a strong wind, being able to get the sails pulling properly could be very useful.

That said I'd be interested in what the PB2 course says about stopping a ton and a half of boat when some berk stuck a rev limiter on reverse.. Discounting engaging reverse gear 500yds off, and the kedge and bungee approach - cos I've already thought of them, and appealing though the latter sounds in a Dastardly & Mutley kind of way, I have a hunch I'd get it stuck in someone else's mooring..

:)


<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Arrogance

Perhaps we miss the point!

Just like other activities, motorcycling, car driving, rock climbing.....

The issues is infrequently competence, more often it is overconfidence or arrogance. The reason that road rage is so rife is not that people have not been taught properly or that people are driving without insurance. It is IMHO that there is no respect for the other guy, "the my boat is bigger than yours" , "I worked bloody hard to earn this","no bugger is goin to tell me what to do society" misses the point that we all have a duty of care to others. Why are young male drivers statistically the highest risk, when their reactions are at their peak and they have just been trained ? because they don't recognise their limitations, think they are infallible and don't give a (fig) for the other guy!

Can I suggest that we have a trial period where we skippers are strapped across the bows of our vessels and used as fenders by our competent crew so that we learn a little consideration. Then of course those that have learn't the first lesson can then move on to collision regs.

<hr width=100% size=1>
Could also instead of an SSR have a big sticker 1-800-999 How's my driving sticker, straight to the insurance company<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by IanR on 31/08/2004 18:47 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Re: Arrogance

Exactly

a little bit more of "there but for the grace of God......." would do wonders for boating and raggieVstinky relationships.

and

<<easily 75% of the boats ... little idea of what they are supposed to be doing and that 75% of the worse (sic) offenders are motor cruisers!>>

turns out to mean - the mobos need to be trained !!!

Hmmmmm !

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: RYA and legislation

Ships_parrot
I agree with most of what you say, however if you noticed in my post I did use the word "basic" as far a ticketing was concerned and I didn't say where or how the training be given.

The only way to really start with the Colregs is to get a copy and study them. The reason I quoted Colregs was because in my experience, and it seems in most other forum members judging from pervious posts here, that there are a lot of boaters out there that haven't got a clue. There are many reported incidences of people just not understanding our version of the highway code.

My comment about the sails pulling was meant to be that I can get a sail to pull but if I had onboard a sail trimmer from say an Admirals Cup boat he’d probably kick my butt for setting the sails so badly, hence my comment about taking a little longer to get to my destination.

With VHF, there is already in place laws governing the use so a ticket in that direction is already established.

The reason for stating PB2 is because it is a basic boat handling ticket and all mobo’s have an engine and most yachts too!! My comment was that most problems associated with poor boat handling seem to be when the rags are down and the iron sail is on.
Please don’t equate poor boat handling with the Colregs that’s a different matter.

Finally, I was suggesting a basic level that should be required IF ticketing became mandatory and was set against the original posters comments.

I will say it again, where else can you be in charge of so much weight without even the most "basic" licencing.


<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: RYA and legislation

Nick
I thought we WERE talking about in-experienced sailors here? I don't think anyone has a problem with experienced folks just those that can't handle a boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: RYA and legislation

As far as ticketing is concerned, I wasn't really arguing, I can see that ther will soon come a time if it's not already here when the advantages might outweigh the disadvantages. It would still be inconvinient for me though..... :)

My main point was that I percieved (maybe incorrectly) your post to be indicating that if you dindn't agree you needed a course, then you were somehow arrogant and irresponsible, irrespective of experience.

I wasn't arguing about the VHF, did the course, got the license as required by law - no complaints on that one.

I really wasn't equating colregs with boat handling..

As you say, most problems occur under engine, because that's what we usually opt for in confined spaces it's the confined spaces that cause most of the problem. The problem is that we become too dependant. Any course that's supposed to cover boat handling should also cover "exit strategies" when the engine decides to be dead or otherwise ineffective. This is the point I was making with regard to the sails, as they're a valuable resource for a yacht with a dead engine and shouldn't be ignored - likewise warping. So maybe we're talking about PB2 plus extras??

I agree that we get let loose with a lot of weight without compulsory licensing. As a side issue, I've noticed that though I stretched my budget to get a 24 footer (I wouldn't have wanted to start on anything bigger) as my first displacement boat after years in dinghies, entry level now appears to be around 30' - even in some cases for those with no experience. Could this and the speeds some of the craft that people start on perhaps be something to take into account in any ticketing system/exemptions?

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: Arrogance

Exactly - if people weren't so arrogant they'd acquire the necessary skills by whatever means before taking their new craft out.
Males are typically more arrogant, and also critically, often trying to impress females, often unsuccessfully.

I tend towards the cautious side, which along with a dose of luck, is why I haven't come to serious grief yet (scrabbling round for wood to touch in modern open plan office).

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: Arrogance

well ... <A target="_blank" HREF=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/3616820.stm>so qualifications will stop accidents</A>

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: This arrogance thing won\'t wash

While I am prepared to admit to going a bit "skippery" as my crew call it, every now and then, I don't see that it leads to handling errors.

The biggest causes of prangs is.

Picking the wrong place because, crew, traffic, conditions or time are driving you.
Not planning your manouver.
Not telling the crew the plan.
Not visualizing what might happen should things not go as planned & how to get out of there.
The crew thinking for themselves.
Not asking for help when the Sh*t hits the fan.
Your mind going blank.

Inexperience isn't the only reason.

Now I get on great with other peoples boats of any size & type, a crew of nitwits or on my own, big tides and a bit of wind. Give me my own boat and an "experienced" crew and just wait to be entertained. So my sin is being a bit casual when I'm in my comfort zone.

Another part of the same problem is attitude. We don't have a very relaxed attitude to each other in mooring situations. The skipper knows everybodies looking. He's suspicious of helping hands and striving for a level of perfection that he's not equiped to achieve. Those that are watching are just willing a cock up to happen provided they don't get hit.

While I admit it's a bit crass to keep having the same type of accident the scope is huge. I'm amazed we don't have more of them.



<hr width=100% size=1>
 
I've been sailing a variety of boats for over 30yrs now, never a claim and escorted in once by a l/b following a vicious knock down that left my crew in such a state of shock that she was taken aboard the lifeboat and whisked ashore to be checked out by a doctor. (At the cox'n's insistance). I pride myself in handling my long keeler in restricted marina berths with the minimum fuss or drama, making use of springs etc, Yet this w/end gone I made a complete arse of not only tying up, but leaving the berth as well . /forums/images/icons/blush.gif.
Anyone (and there were plenty). who saw me would have put me down as a complete idiot who should not have been let loose in a dinghy let alone 6.5 tons of steel yacht. I have not a single qalification in sailing to my name but fail to see how a piece of paper could have saved me from a considerable ammount of emmbarassment.
Having said that I think legislation is probably inevitable if only as yet another way of raising revenue, accordingly I have bitten the bullet and made enquiries about the RYA qualifications. I might also add for those who may be concerned, at no time was either mine or any other boat in any danger of even being scratched and the only damage was to my ego. The root cause was not a lack of qualifications or experience, just through being very tired after beating into winds that touched 34 knts for over 6 hours culminating in our re-routing to seek shelter short of our destination. I for one will never stop learning and I do have very real concerns that there are people out there who having done a basic course might actually become over confident and get into serious trouble as a result, you only have to look at the number of newly qualified car drivers who having taken their test are involved in accidents. Just my 2 penneth worth. Regards, Mike.

<hr width=100% size=1>My Mum say's I'm not a fat b@st@rd, just heavy boned.
 
Can identify with what both yourself and Peppermint are saying .. its the comfort zone that's the most dangerous .. complacency. As a matter of interest a charter base manager in the Med once told me that the most accidents occur to yachtmasters .. on the other hand I'm a better and safer sailor with the training I've ubdertaken .. however I did'nt have a sailing background and had to start from scratch (so to speak!!!)

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
Re: Arrogance

Qualifications in themselves won't. Experience (in the course of getting those qualifications or not) might reduce the number of accidents. Cock-ups still happen to the best of us. Humans make mistakes...

The arrogance comes in when someone who's never had a go in a boat before buys one and careers around the place thinking it's all simple really and they know all they need to. What I'm getting at is that maybe there comes a point where we have legislate for the idiots of the world for everyones sake. Heaven knows there are enough precedents for that..

Can't say I'll really be pleased to see the day, but then I'm not pleased to see people with all the gear and no idea knocking gelcoat off my boat every other weekend, to the point I've had to move moorings to get further away from the public slip and pontoon.

<hr width=100% size=1>
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Other threads that may be of interest

zoidberg
'This month's hot boating topic....'
2 3
Replies
42
Views
1K
tjbrace
tjbrace

Share this page

Top