JumbleDuck
Well-known member
What do these forum rules say about old threads?
He didn't. See the date of the post before his.
Sails; top quality British sails, from China???
- Thread starter Sans Bateau
- Start date
What do these forum rules say about old threads?
He didn't. See the date of the post before his.
solosails
New member
Hi, Sorry.
I replied to it because I was searching the forum for the same topic and came across the slanderous post from chrisbitz about my loft, so I felt justified putting my response to his comment.
Concerto
Well-known member
Quite rightly so. I do not think you have done anything wrong. Perhaps chrisbitz might like to withdraw his comment.
solosails
New member
Thanks.
prv
Well-known member
Still not current, though.
I realise this zombie-raising wasn't intended as an advert, but that is quite a common cause of them as spammers search for something vaguely relevant to their product and then add a "helpful" post about it to an ancient thread.
Pete
ronsurf
Well-known member
The last post in 2007 was by Twister_Ken (post #20) until Solosails posted in 2014 (Post #21).
Personally, I use a top quality phone that was made in China, I've played top quality guitars that were made in China, and I own a top quality bicycle that was made in China. Why would the quality be dictated by where it was made?
My surfboard was made in the UK, (Cornwall, in fact) because that's what I wanted. It wasn't dictated by price. If the same guy was making them in China, it would have been Chinese.
I've read a few posts that go on about the quality of a sail, and that Chinese sails use cheaper fabric. So why don't the British sail lofts offer cheaper fabric. "We could have made a sail out of that but don't want to.." Well, there you go. They could have made a sail (sale?) but they didn't want to. That is not the fault of the Chinese - that's the sailmaker thinking quality when the customer is thinking price.
For some customers, spending £1000+ on a sail for a boat worth £2000 is economic nonsense. But for £500 or £600, then possibly. If the sail doesn't last long then so what? You've no idea if the boat will even outlive the sail!
Ultimately, it's the customer's choice. If money is a priority, then where they shop is up to them. If you make top quality British-made sails, then you'll sell to customers who want top quality British made sails. You're going to struggle to sell to a customer who wants a cheap sail so they can sell their boat. First rule of business: don't sell what you can do - sell what the market wants.
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solosails
New member
Hi Ronsurf, I'm sorry, but the date of the post before mine was 22-05-14 not 2006 as you suggest.
[EDIT : sorry, I see that you were refering to a post I made earlier on in the thread, yes, you are correct]
Either way, I agree with the rest of your post, it is up to the customer if they want to buy budget, and I am not saying Chinese sails are bad quality.
The point is as you say that the customer has a choice.
Ironically, the Chinese market is no longer as cheap as it used to be, and genuine UK built sail prices are becoming more and more affordable. This is also a sad reflection of the state of our economy, as we import so much and export so little, we can now afford to manufacture once again because we are effectively poor and have low wages.
RE materials, the Chinese super lofts often have access to the same materials at lower prices as they buy so much of it and get better discounts, but also they may use poor or low quality cloths that are actually rubbish. I have seen a few quotes from so called UK sailmakers that have their sails made in China, and the materials are Unknown ... The sailmaking world is surprisingly small, and if there is a cloth that is unheard of, you can guarantee that is for good reason, it's probably rubbish.
The other problem we are seeing more and more often now is that some lofts are changing the name of the material to something else, so that it is impossible to compare the quotes as you do not know what material it actually is (this usually means its the cheap stuff, otherwise they would give it the real name.)
Anyway, it wasn't my intention to get into a debate about this, I just wanted to be able to have a voice for the unpleasant comment that was made about my loft.
Thanks all for the support.
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Concerto
Well-known member
At the London Boat Show I chatted with a number of sail makers as I am considering new sails for my boat. What I heard about sail fabrics was very interesting, not just the top laminates for racing, but all stated that there are only 4 manufacturers that produce consistent quality cloth that can be relied on to perform as specified. The variable consistency of all of the other manufacturers who were cheaper, was the reason they did not use these sources. Read the Kemp Sails page on sail cloth http://www.kempsails.com/yacht-sails/sail-fabric.html for the 4 top manufacturers.
I know that when I am going to buy new sails, the quality of the cloth is going to be very high on my list, along with the cut and finishing. A top quality cloth will also last longer than a cheaper cloth. The phrase buy cheap, buy twice comes to mind. My boat currently has 14 year old Hood sails and the genoa is certainly reaching the end of its working life, but the fully battened main could last a few more years, but will be changed.
solosails
New member
Hi Concerto,
The article from Kemp Sails you link to is a very good bit of information, thanks for the resource.
I used to work for Kemp sails and they used to sponsor me when I was racing, (in fact, you would have seen a picture of me sailing on their show stand walls). I have a lot of respect for them, they are one of the few All British Manufacturers of sails in the UK, and they set an extremely high level example of customer care.
We spend a lot of time trying to explain to our customers that all that is white is not the same, there is a huge difference between quality of cloth. A cheap cloth will loose its shape and performance within a few season, but to the untrained eye, it looks like a shiny new white sail.
It's always difficult to try and explain this without feeling like you're trying to spin a yarn (pardon the pun) in order to sell a more expensive cloth! - this simply isn't the case, we only use the better quality cloths as they will last longer and we don't want loads of saggy old sails with our logo on them out there!
The article from Kemp Sails you link to is a very good bit of information, thanks for the resource.
I used to work for Kemp sails and they used to sponsor me when I was racing, (in fact, you would have seen a picture of me sailing on their show stand walls). I have a lot of respect for them, they are one of the few All British Manufacturers of sails in the UK, and they set an extremely high level example of customer care.
We spend a lot of time trying to explain to our customers that all that is white is not the same, there is a huge difference between quality of cloth. A cheap cloth will loose its shape and performance within a few season, but to the untrained eye, it looks like a shiny new white sail.
It's always difficult to try and explain this without feeling like you're trying to spin a yarn (pardon the pun) in order to sell a more expensive cloth! - this simply isn't the case, we only use the better quality cloths as they will last longer and we don't want loads of saggy old sails with our logo on them out there!
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
One caveat - Kemps can't use cloth made by sail manufacturers for their own use, so you won't see North cloth - for example - in Kemp's list. Nothing dodgy about North cloth, though.
solosails
New member
Quite right, but another caveat to the caveat is that often the propriety cloths are often all made by the same manufacturer in the first place anyway, so Dimension Polyant may well make cloths exclusively for one company, but in reality there is often very little difference between another of their 'own brand' materials.
chrisbitz
Member
You just don't get it do you? These forums are non commercial. If you want an advert, then pay for one, and support the forum.
You may think you're being very clever putting Google search related keywords in all your posts with your website in them to make your site rank higher, but some of us can see what you're doing.
In my opinion, any company that employs dishonest and dodgy tactics like that cant be trusted.
I just bought a great quality sail from http://wilkinsonsails.co.uk/ and they got my business without using such sneaky tactics as your company employs..
solosails
New member
I'm sorry chrisbitz, You just slated my company randomly for no reason and that is why I replied to your damning and unfounded comments, everyone has a right to respond to allegations.
And forgive me, but it appears that you are the one choosing specific keywords and links in the same post, this is futile anyway as all links from this forum are tagged rel=nofollow and means that google will disregard them in any search rankings.
Otherwise I would have asked for your original comment linking the keywords 'spam' 'dodgy' 'sails' and a link to my website to be deemed as a deliberate attack and removed.
(interesting that your last post has the keywords ' Great Quality Sails' and a link to Wilkinson sails. (Any affiliation?)
bbg
Active member
I agree.
I thought I had already replied to the thread but can't see my post anywhere now.
Anyway, I know Andrew from solosails to be one of the really nice guys I have met in solo and shorthanded sailing circles. He is running a British business down in Cornwall and is the kind of guy the forum should be trying to support, not slate.
chrisbitz
Member
I was being ironic. Did you just remove the link to your company in your signature before replying to me?
Also, I didn't slate you randomly, I slated you because I was upset at your sneaky use of the forum to advertise.
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solosails
New member
I was being ironic. Did you just remove the link to your company in your signature before replying to me?
No, I didn't remove a link.
I agree that using forums to gather attention to your business is on the edge of the rules, and I agree with you there. However, I am up front about the fact that I am a sailmaker, and I'm not trying to pretend otherwise.
I hope (would like to think) that having the voice of a genuine professional might be of asset to the forum as well as helping visibility to my company.
I do see that it is a fine line to tread.
Anyway, no hard feelings, thanks for your response.
Andrew
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solosails
New member
Thanks for the kind words!
I'm about to go and write 1000 lines saying 'I will not get involved in forums on a business level' as a type of self punishment!
Moderator
Forum Moderation Team
Another revived thread going the way of the flame.
chrisbitz has bought a sail from his local loft, who is also a long time sailmaker contributor here, no problem with that.
However, he has also had 2 posts moderated this very afternoon.
You have both made your points.
solosails, please feel welcome on the forum, and you might wish to look up Cindy Wilkinson's posts to see how she contributes without rubbing people up the wrong way.
chrisbitz has bought a sail from his local loft, who is also a long time sailmaker contributor here, no problem with that.
However, he has also had 2 posts moderated this very afternoon.
You have both made your points.
solosails, please feel welcome on the forum, and you might wish to look up Cindy Wilkinson's posts to see how she contributes without rubbing people up the wrong way.
solosails
New member
I will, thanks again for moderation!
