Sailcloth confusion

[jonjo]

What sailcloth would the panel recommend for the following usage pattern based in the English Channel?

35% Solent pottering with mixed ability crews.
35% Shorthanded cross channel cruising.
20% Singled handed sailing.
10% Double handed passage racing.

Fully battened mail of 42 sq meters
105% Jib of 30.5 sq meters
5.6 ton fin keel 35 ft yacht with a slim racy hull.

The Southampton boat show gave me an opportunity to talk with sailmakers and compound my confusion over sail technology.

With the new boat due to be plonked in the water in January it is time to firm up an order for the sail wardrobe. After exploring all the exotic options it looks like cross cut Dacron sails are right for me, but I need some validation of the following thought processes.

Before the show I thought Hydranet (Dacron with an interwoven high-tech fibre) was the answer. However the man from Bainbridge Sailcloth was condescending about the whole concept (no equivalent in his product range). His argument made sense though. Before the high-tech fibres can take the strain and provide a benefit, the ups and downs within the woven Hydranet fabric weave have to straighten and before this occurs the sail will have lost its performance shape.

So at this point the options appeare to be:

Club racer laminate type sails.
Dacron (cross cut or tri-radial).
Exotic genesis/ 3DL mono panel.

Perceived wisdom says that a racy design like a Match 35 with its 790 sq ft @ 105% fore triangle deserves laminate sails as a minimum and Opal are pushing a one-design sail package for the Match 35 based on Sobstad genesis sails.

Trouble is I think such high-tech options would be wasted on me to begin with. I am concerned that before I am a competitive helm (say 2 to 3 years) the high tech sails would be getting old.

Also it seems that serious racer-cruiser yachts have a spare set of sails for ordinary sailing. So all this says to me that I should buy some ordinary cross cut Dacron sails that will have a half decent shape for the first two seasons and then in year 3 I should invest in some performance sails, if this is where my sailing career is heading.

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[Robin]

Bainbridge were unlikely to say Hydranet is any good as they don't have an alternative of their own, Hydranet is Spectra reinforced woven Dacron and is made by Dimension Polyant. Hood on the other hand do have something similar so who is right? I went for a Hydranet triradial genoa 3 years ago and love it, at around 580 sq ft it is a heavily loaded sail and I thought straight Dacron would stretch too much. This year we added a fully battened triradial Hydranet mainsail and this one is a WOW. Again our mainsail is heavily loaded and close to 400 sq ft, I though straight Dacron would stretch too much. I wasn't looking for Americas Cup performance but for 'fast' sails that I wouldn't need to replace in a year or two.

If you really want to race competitively then you will need a very deep wallet, other than club races you will not win with old (read 2 years plus) sails. IMHO of course!

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Twister_Ken]

I love spending other people's money!

So start off by buying cruising sails, main, No 1 genoa, No 3 Genoa, storm jib, cruising chute.
main and No 3 in x-cut dacron, No 1 in crusing laminate tri-radial, chute in 3/4oz rip stop nylon, storm jib in heavy high viz dacron.

Then , when and if you think your hard enough, buying a racing suit, just for racing, in whatever the latest fashionable racing cloth is at the time.

PS No one (almost no one anyway) wins races by sailing with a roller furler genoa. You'll need at least a light No 1, a heavy number 1 and a no 3, as well as a storm jib.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[jonjo]

Re: Hydranet back on the list

I have just been talking to your sail maker on the phone.

He says Hydranet sails are proving to be robust with 7 year old examples in the field. He thinks the material is underrated in UK sailing circles, adding that it is also not popular in the Med because of concerns that higher UV levels might degrade the spectra prematurely.

The one Match 35 I trial sailed had a pair of tri-radial Hydranet sails, this was a French boat scheduled to do an Atlantic circuit next year. I suppose a radial Hydranet sail could serve a long-term double race/cruise function if I only get semi serious about racing.

A Crusader Sails quote is on the way via email and the prices over the phone were competitive. Must say I had always viewed Crusader as a purveyor good value middle of the road cruising sails but I suppose these days the mathematics of a performance sail cut are embedded in software.

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[bedouin]

I have a similar usage pattern to yours. After much investigation I went for top-of-the-range Dacron. My view was that the only fabrics that will still be usable in 5 years time are Dacron or Vectran and the like (Hydranet probably falls into that category).

Laminate sails were somewhat more expensive, although there is not a great distance between a top of the range Dacron and a cheap cruising laminate, but they certainly don't have the longevity.

Cheap Dacron is a waste of time and money - they perform badly from new and quickly get worse.

Part of my reasoning is that I want to be able to try a number of different sail combinations on the boat so going for the expensive but long-lived Spectra type was not appropriate for this set - perhaps next time...

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[jonjo]

Re: Super Ted disciple

I have been following the adventures of a Maxi 1100 called Super Ted. This boat is the leader of the pack in English Channel double handed racing circles and came second in the 2003 Fastnet doubled handed class.

Super Ted has an interesting sail wardrobe designed to get the best out of the IRC rule given the racing limitations of a crew of two.

The IRC rule compensates a yacht equipped with a single furling foresail. So on the basis that a crew of two does not have the energy to keep swapping foresails offshore, Superted has a single 105% laminate jib.

The small jib creates a performance hole upwind in light conditions but this is partly plugged by a tight luffed Code-0 cut to rate as a spinnaker. Super Ted still suffers close hauled in light wind but in passage racing less time is spent hard on the wind compared to a course set by a race committee around the cans.

At present I do not think I will get involved with round the cans racing, it is too expensive aside from the man management problems of getting 7 people to turn up at 8:30am on a Sunday morning.


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[jonjo]

Re: Still learning

While following up on your reference to vectran I found a page describing the benefits of using a woven polyester+vectran cloth for furling head sails.

Apparently more advanced sail designs suffer when partially rolled because the special reinforcement at the tack and head disappear into the roll leaving under strength panels to take up the strain.

So one advantage of a x-cut design in a furling jib is that load is not placed on mid-sail panels not designed for corner stresses. Got to admit I had not considered this point.

The Crusader bumf tackles the same issue as well and suggests a c-cut radial pattern for a performance oriented furling jib. I cannot describe it in words but the orientation of load on panels remains more consistent as a sail is progressively rolled.

p.s. Don't leave, some of us still want to talk boats.

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[Robin]

That would have been my choice on your boat too, just as it was on our previous one. The cloth costs are just a proportion of the final cost so the best cloth doesn't add hugely to the price but does add hugely to performance and longevity. The reason we went for Hydranet for our latest boat was the much higher sail loadings which would stretch even a high quality Dacron too much even using a heavier cloth weight.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[mirabriani]

I bought a modest 24 footer which had been raced.
I am told the sails are Dacron. They are comparitively stiff and "crackly"
She sails SO very well and frequently shows her transom to bigger yachts.
If I were to replace the sails I would order the same again no matter what the cost

IMHO Briani

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[Mudplugger]

Suspect that your logic is pretty valid in respect of the laminate suit, and exceeding interested in the response from Robin, partcularly as I shall be treading a similar path next year. However, if you do go for Dacron etc, surely you would be better with radial cut, rather than cross-cut. It seems to take the stress and hold shape much better for longer imho, the last set were still looking good & performing well at 8 years old.. regards Tony W

<hr width=100% size=1>Tony W.

 

[Robin]

The best advice is to talk over your requirements, expectations and budget with your favourite sailmaker or two. Different strokes for different folks. There are advantages to radial cut biradial or triradial, at least with a full sail, partly rolled it may be different, Your bio says cutter so again a different scenario than for a full height 135% or more genoa on a sloop. The sailmaker will have a sailplan and can calculate the loadings and then the options.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>