Safety Survey 2 - Guardrails/Lifelines

[bedouin]

Do you get the impression that our friend ccscott49 has never actually tried hoisting a spinnaker shorthanded from the foredeck of a 30-40' sailing boat?

I'm afraid I don't believe there is any practical arrangement of clipping points that would work.

I don't think it is practical to have to clip and unclip when moving from the mast to the bows and back - just imagine trying to gybe the spinnaker like that, especially end-to-ending the pole.

It is amusing that he can't post a simple answer to my simple question - you have to wonder whether he really does have this miracle solution he describes, and if so why he is so secretive about it

 

[Chris_Robb]

dunno - but he did seem to be in a quite uncharactistic stroppy mood with some of his replies on this thread! I have always found - within the drivell - that he has a lot of experince to pass on, so did he get out of the wrong side of his bunk today?

I am one of the worst offenders for not wearing a harness, - I always wear them at night, but during the day - well only if its really blowing.

 

[ccscott49]

Not quite gone yet and I've hoisted a few, but again not lately, but have they changed in the last five-ten years? But again have to be honest not many, because most of my racing has been done on gaffers, 33' morcambe bay types mainly, (with no guardwires) and standing on the end of a bowsprit, trying to get a bloody great jammed genoa down is also lots of fun. But if you were flying a spinnaker in the kind of weather where bloody great seas were coming over the bow, cant see that somehow, but you want your head looking at, IMHO but who am I to say! I am actually more of your "foot on the tiller, beer in the hand type of sailor". If we are talking straight racing here with end to ending poles and gybing spinnakers, I respectably bow out. My boat is obvious;y radically different from a racing boat, so I can incorporate the methods I use. But far from being secretive, if your ever down my way, Barcelona, come over and I'll show you how we do it on Englander.

 

[ccscott49]

Drivel, bluidy drivel!! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Chris_Robb]

Hey - thought the helicopter had taken you off!!!!!!!!!!!!

have a good break!

 

[ccscott49]

Delayed!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Tell me about Villagarcia and Portsotin - we may end up there as a base next year as Britany - lovelly though it is - is so crowded - that after only one year we have decided to move on. By crowded I mean that most marinas have a waiting list of 2 to 4 years so leaving a boat there is as expensive as the UK south coast.

Tried to ring Villagarcia yeserday to get info but slight language problem! so have to find a spaninh speaker.

Which of the above would you recommend - bearing in mind access to the airport at Santiago (flights £110 return)?

Might as well make use of you while you sit around doing nothing

 

[Twister_Ken]

Foredeck working

Howsabout a jackstay from the front face of the mast to the stemhead, at deck level?

Used with a short (1m) tether you could do most foredecky stuff apart from climbing out to the end of the spinny pole for a peel, and you'd have to work very hard to go over the side with that sort of set-up.

 

[bedouin]

Re: Foredeck working

I was wondering about that one.

However my harness is attached to my chest - requiring at least a 5' line to give any form of movement, and that's more than enough for me to end up in the water.

The geometry is quite simple. When standing on the foredeck my chest is further away from my feet than my feet are from the water - so there is no method for attaching the harness at deck level that could stop me falling in

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Foredeck working

>so there is no method for attaching the harness at deck level that could stop me falling in<

Ah, but that's what lifelines are for (see title post of thread!). Up from jackstay to top lifeline (say 20") back down to gunwhale (another 20"). That's 3'4" of your 5' tether used up. So unless your freeboard fwd is less than 1'8" you're OK (granted you might get wet up to the waist.

 

[bedouin]

I get the impression that "Englander" is somewhat larger that "Bedouin". The concepts that work on your boat may not be directly applicable to smaller vessels. For example, I know that you prefer centre-mounted jackstays, but on a smaller boat, deck mounted are much safer (provided you stick to clipping onto the upwind side) for the same reason as given above. If the safety line is long enough for me to walk along the deck standing up, with the harness clipped to my chest, it is long enough to allow me to fall in.

 

[bedouin]

Re: Foredeck working

Oh - I agree with you, but a couple of people higher up the thread were suggesting that lifelines are useless - or even dangerous. However on the couple of times I've come near to falling in it was underneath the lifelines

As an interesting aside, given than we can't use harnesses to prevent going in all together (at leas on small sailing boats) - might there not be a danger of making them too short so that if you did go overboard you had no room to manoeuvre?

In my more pessimistic moments I try to work out what I would do if I fell in (wearing harness) from the foredeck while trying to hoist the spinnaker with only me on board. I'm not yet convinced I could get out of that!

 

[NigeCh]

Remember Eric Taberly (nm)

 

[Guest]

I don't know - it seems self evident to me that its safer to stay with the boat - so it might well be uncomfortable but I'd rather be clipped on to a jackstay and bash myself on the side of the boat than watch the boat sail away as I try to explain to SWMBO how to drop the sails, turn on the ingine and find me again - "No, no, the keys on the hook to the right of the chart table next to the pencil box ....glub".

Interestingly, I've been considering guard rails as in old/new boats. There's no question that you sit and stand deeper in an old cockpit whereas with mine - when your travelling on an even keel you feel higher and perhaps more exposed (when most of the time the guard rail could be considered and irrelevance (aside from wash)). However, when heeled over the side deck and guard rail are relatively higher and that feeling definitely goes away. When we went across the channel earlier in the year in a fairly heavy swell I felt perfectly comfortable and safe - ditto getting caught in some bigger green stuff off the Point de Barfleur.

I reckon use your loaf - jackstays, clip on points, guard rail and harnesses are a good idea - use them whenever you first have the thought.

Geoff W

 

[Twister_Ken]

Waterskiing

I know it's not quite the same thing, but I did once manage to do a backward roll out of my Fireball when the toestrap broke, and found myself being towed along at some speed because I had the mainsheet wrapped around my hand. For some reason, the boat didn't fall over (funny, whenever I was in it, it would capsize quicker than a pony after a polo mint). My noble but inexperienced crew who was trapezing stepped off the gunwhale. "I thought if the skipper had a good reason for getting off the boat, I ought to do the same", so that the boat capsized to windward on top of him. 30 years later, we still tell each other the story and collapse laughing.

 

[Bergman]

Have a slight problem with logic of this.

How are you going to trip over a 20in high wire?

Sure they may not in every conceivable case prevent going over side, but will do in some cases. Not being there can never prevent big splash.

No-one suggested guard rails as an alternative to harness - use both. Must be better to dangle over side than to disappear in wake.

Totally false argument to say because cannot guarantee 100% guarantee should not use. Presumably you don't use seat belts in car or aeroplane etc etc.

 

[Mirelle]

They are a waste of space

I took mine off last year and have not missed them once, this season. Yes, I do use a safety harness, and yes I insist on the crew using them.

Their abscence makes boarding the boat from a dinghy much safer.

 

[ianwright]

"How are you going to trip over a 20in high wire?"

How high are your knees off the ground?

IanW.



Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Guest]

Anything that stops or slows the kids from sliding off is a Good Thing. Harnesses, guardrails, whatever.

Yes, I'm even going to put the detestable netting on for next season.

 

[ianwright]

Kids,,,,

Ah yes, a different problem. Naturally you will do whatever you can to keep toddlers on board, and if that means guard wires and netting then fine.
My problem with guard wires on small, say under 30ish foot, is that they are never strong enough or high enough and they get in the way.
If my Vertue had effective guard rails they would need to be 3feet high, so that my center of gravity was below the top rail and strong enough to stop my 20 stone body falling from 7 feet away..
Big boats can do that, I can't. So I make other arraingements, a line down the centerline to which I clip with a SHORT tether.
No kids, no dogs, no crew.
It works for me.

IanW. .

Vertue 203, Patience