Safety Survey 2 - Guardrails/Lifelines

[spark]

Does anyone have any observations or opinions as to the usefulness or otherwise of these?

I have always thought that they are, at best, a nuisance (having to climb over them to get in/out of the dinghy) and, at worst, dangerous (providing a false sense of security when you should really be clipped on).

 

[ccscott49]

Unless they are very strong, (proper handrails) I don't see the point of them, they wont stop you going over the side, might stop stuff falling off, unless they are for tieing fenders to.

 

[Jacket]

I agree they probably won't stop you going over the side if you're standing up, but they've twice stopped me being washed over the side while changing foresails in rough conditions.

So personally, I swear by them and won't go anywhere without them. (also, they're good for leaning against when sitting on the cockpit coaming)

 

[ianwright]

Have nothing to do with them, false security at best and trip wires at worst. Better to wear a good harness with short tether so that you can't go over the side.

IanW

Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Twister_Ken]

Agree with Jacket, plus the couple of times I have gone over the side, I've managed to grab the guardwire on the way down, and stayed in touch with the boat.

 

[ccscott49]

Shouldn't you have been clipped on? Isn't that what harnesses are for? Maybe being a little pedantic, but it's been a long hitch 30 days this time! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Peter_H]

They may not be strong enough to stop you going over the side but are often essential just to lay a hand on to recapture balance.

 

[bedouin]

Mine have stopped me going over at least once, and they also provide a bit of support when going forwards. I can't understand why anyone would say you would be safer without.

Re Harnesses - in my experience it is not possible to use a harness to guarantee that you won't fall overboard - although be careful running of the jackstays and use of clipping on points you can reduce the chance. The main purpose of a harness is to keep you attached to the boat should you fall in.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Yes, except both times I've fallen off I was actually attempting to get off!

Once was coming into a jetty, when I was standing outside the lifelines, waiting to jump with a rope - and I slipped when still yards from the shore.

The other time we were on a mooring in Cowes Roads - blowing half a gale over the tide - and I was stepping down into a harbour launch when a wave pushed it away from the side of the lugger, leaving me trying to stand on 8 metres of Solent.

 

[ccscott49]

I totally disagree with you, harnesses are there to stop you going over the side. Being dragged through the water by your harness, especially as a single hander, has got to be one of the worse situations, apart from watching your boat sail away that is! The siting of my jackstays and hook on points, make it impossible for you to go over the side if you are clipped on and the harness etc doesn't break even if we capsize, when the boat comes back up, so will you. Those pathetic stanchions, bases and guardwires on most modern yachts will not stop a cat being thrown over the side by the force of a wave hitting you. all this IMHO.

 

[ccscott49]

I wish I'd been there, both times! I'd have needed surgery for strained tummy muscles!! tee hee /forums/images/icons/smile.gif Mind you can't say anything myself, only time I've fallen in it was concerning tenders!

 

[bedouin]

It must vary from boat to boat - but as an example, suppose I am going forwards to hoist the spinnaker - I need to be able to clip on to a point where I can get to the stemhead fitting, the mast and the shrouds.

Now on my boat there is nowhere that I can fix an attachment point that gives me sufficient freedom to work, but that would prevent me from falling overboard - and I don't see how on any boat you can be clipped on, working at the stemhead, and not have a long enough harness to at least fall over the side.

 

[ccscott49]

When working at the stem head, double the lifeline, so its short.

 

[Jacket]

I guess it depends on the size of your boat and its deck layout, but on mine at least, you can't set things up so that your safety line is short enough to prevent you going over the side, while still allowing you to stand up.

As far as those 'pathetic stanchions, bases ' they'r ment to break if you fall against them. Its like those motorway crash barriers-the gaurd wire stays in one piece, keeping you aboard, while the bending and breaking of the stanchions absorbs your kinetic energy.

 

[bedouin]

Clipped on to where?

If you have a single clipping on point your harness would have to be 8' long to enable you to work at both the mast foot and the stemhead - plenty long enough to allow you to fall in. Even with jackstays at deck level you would still need a 6' harness. - still too long. You might manage it if it were possible to rig a jackstay from the mast to the forestay at chest height - but that is just not practical, and even then it couldn't stop you falling off the deck.

 

[ccscott49]

Designed to break! Rubbish! They are designed as cheap as possible! If they were strong enough, they would keep you onboard! On a small boat, they are just a damn nuisance and restrict your passage forward to an unsafe crab walk. Put hand holds down the centreline, to hold onto, or rather just off the centreline. For children onboard, I can see there use.

 

[Jacket]

Sorry, but its true. If you work out the sort of load imposed by someone being thrown across the deck by a wave, they'd be hitting the stanchions with a force of well over a tonne. Even if you could make stanchions strong enough to take this load, the hull of the boat couldn't, unless the bases were of unreasonably huge proportions. (you'd also do yourself a lot of damage!)

However, as long as the guardwire holds, it doesn't matter if one of the stanchions breaks, so why bother risking hull damage by making the stanchions stronger? By allowing some stanchions to bend it also slows you down more gently, reducing the damage caused to both yourself and the boat.

The problem with cheap stanchion bases isn't ultimate strength, but that their design causes fatigue damage to the deck ie. due to their small 'footprint' they cause continuous flexing to the deck, which causes cracking of the resin and snapping and crushing of the glass strands.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Guardrails/Lifelines

Designers and builders should allow for damage to stanchions in their design. On many boats - old and new, you cannot get at the stanchion basis from inside, and if they are fixec to the aluminium toerail, your may find it easy to change the stanchion, but what if it has damaged the toe rail???? you have a major job on hand, - or just let the boat leak.

 

[ccscott49]

What is wrong with having a two legged harness, and putting another harness point up at the stem head? I seem to manage. But I admit I have handrails, proper ones and the positioning of my jackstays, does not allow me to be thrown across the boat, all it takes is a little lateral thinking and actually positioning things where they will do the most good, I also admit I have to clip and unclip more than some boats, but have you ever tried to find somebody lost overboard in heavy weather, let alone get them back on board, as for single handers, think again. I just have a different view of these issues, I firmly believe a harness is to keep you onboard. But I see I'm not getting through, so it's time to admit defeat and retire. I'm going home anyway, choppers on the way! Yahooooooo!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Agree with you - but Beduoin does have some practicle issues, which I also find a problem. I may need to reach up to the spinaker boom fro,m the bows - so where ever I'm clipped onto will have to have sufficient movement for me to do this - and that will give me enough line to go over board. The SStanchions are in my view just another method of trying to keep you on board.

Go go off home and be a good boy.