Safety Numbers?

[Alistairr]

On the recent very popular topic of safety, I ask you what is a safe number of people to have on a boat, before it starts to get dangerous?

My new Rinker that is 23'6" long has a plate at the helm that says max. persons allowed =12 + some baggage.
Now after the recent FATAL accident involving 15 people on a 23' Norman, 12 people on my Rinker just wouldn't be right.

Last year i had a Fletcher 18 sportscruiser, it said the capacity was 5 people. Thats more like it.

Now i get the feeling American boat builders count the capacity at how many people they can sit on the boat, anywhere e.g. on seats, steps or in the cabin/cuddy, Where as British boat builders count only those that seats are provided for out in the cockpit area.

If entertaining i personally only sail with a maximum of 6 people on board, Swmbo, myself and 4 other guests. That to me is plenty on a boat my size.

What does everyone else think about numbers on board?

Cheers..

Alistair..

P.s. On the topic of Safety briefing I have always sailed with my Swmbo, so if anything was to happen to me, she knows all about the safety procedures on the boat and has done the PB2 as well. And any guest we have are given a lifejacket when they come aboard, i leave it to them to decide wether to wear it, But if i say put it on they must do as i say.

The Skippers word is FINAL..


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Petrol Rules..

 

[tcm]

agreed. I think a targa 48 had a sticker somewhere that said maximum 12. But all these issues are far more critical on smaller (let's say compact) powerboats where the centre of gravity is much more quickly moved upwards, and the instability increases dramtically.


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[Alistairr]

Exactly my point, aTarga 48 allows 12. A Rinker 23' allows 12!!

Its not right. As you say this issue is far more critical on smaller boats like mine, I am aware of it, But many people aren't , Like the 18' regal Bowrider that beached beside me last weekend, out jumped 6 adults and 6 childrens, all completely oblivious to the dangers around them!



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[Guest]

Re: COG

I think you need to compare the weight of people to the weight of the boat. We had 15 aboard one day last year, which I reckon is nearly 1000kg of people (half were Lifeboat crew, and they're all big lads). 1 tonne of bodies on a 4.5 tonne boat = OK, 1 tonne of bodies on 2 ton boat = problem.

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[TwoStroke]

I know, my 20ft Four Winns says 10 people. Maximum would be 6 and all wear life jackets if coming aboard.

<hr width=100% size=1>How much to fill'er up!

 

[tcm]

Re: so-called RCD on imports

i wonder if it cos thyey are imports -they somehow get waved thru - but not much actually done to them. Mind you, it's normally thye yanks who wd be more safety-mental. Weird.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: COG

Absolutely agree with what is being said, so don't interpret what I say as not being so.

But when one looks at commercial vessels one can see that you can put very high passenger loadings into planing boats if designed for it. A good example were some 5.8m long boats was involved with weighing 1.7 tonnes (gives an idea of power and structure installed to drive/carry the load) and which carried 15 people (driver and 14 passengers) at around 35 knots. The weight of the passengers were the equivalent of about 70% of the boat own weight.

For vessels about the same length as TCM's (but I concede a little wider ie cats!) am involved with which carry over 180 persons and 200 at a pinch, at (hopefully) around 28 knots fully laden, 35 knots or more if lighter.

Of course, hardly pleasure type boats, just thought it may be of interest to give examples of the numbers one can get into planing vessels designed for it if one has to.

John

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[jhr]

Yes, interesting one this. My 21.6 ft Sea Ray says 8 people, total load 800 kilos. The boat's dry weight is 1,800 kilos so I'm not sure I'd be wild about either of those figures (though 4 adults plus 4 kids is prob. OK). Interesting also to note that it says this on the CE mark plate alongside RCD Category B. I know that Sea Rays are well built and seaworthy and I have a lot of trust in mine but, again, not sure about their evaluation.

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[Observer]

I think you'll find that the maximum number of passengers on any pleasure (as oppsed to commercial) vessel is 12 almost regardless of size. That is because under UK regulations a ship carrying more than 12 passengers is classified as a "passenger ship" and subject to a raft of stringent regulation.

Strictly, "passenger" excludes crew which is anybody not "employed or engaged.. on the business of that ship" so 12 passengers + 4 crew on a large boat will still be a pleasure vessel.

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[byron]

The law allows 12 plus 2 crew on any vessel without a load certificate and a commercially qualified Skipper with a minimum of a Boatman's Licence. HOWEVER! just because the law allows it, that doesn't mean it is safe. Imagine a Shetland 535 with even 6 people aboard, I would say that was at absolute maximum.

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[Alistairr]

Yes.. But whats the penalty for overloading?

If an accident was too happen when within your limits, do the authorities dismiss it as an accident? And if the same happened when overloaded, do they charge the skipper with manslaughter or such?


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[Observer]

Byron,

Is the 2 crew a fixed number regardless of size of vessel and do you happen to know where it is set out? I was working from the definition of "passenger ship" in The Merchant Shipping (Safety of Navigation) Regulations 2002. A large pleasure boat still below the 24m threshold could easily justify 3 or 4 crew (skipper + mate + deckhand + host/ess).

Trouble with all this merchant shipping regulation is not so much complying with what you have in front of you and can interpret but what may be stated elsewhere that you don't know about.



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[tcm]

i wd be interested too. I am fairly sure that the 12 pasengers is fixed - hence even large charter boats are max 12 guests. Otherwise they get into commercial shipping regulations i think.

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[Alistairr]

So as a matter of interest,

What sort of load capacity do the likes of the big Sunseekers and Squadrons have?



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[tcm]

well, our boat can take 5 tonnes of diesel and 1 tonne of water, so even aside from what the safe extra load would be, i wd imagine that a technical limit is perhaps 50 assorted moderately fat gits.

Note that the displacement (and hence load-carrying) rises with the volume - a factor of *cube* of length - whereas deck space only rise in line with the square - in other words, a crammed deck on a smaller boat is proportionally far more dangerous.

But following the wisdom of Byron - the alowed limit is 14 including 2 crew. I imagine it is 10 if there arer four crew. Up to 24 metres, i can't think of many boats with more than sleeping for eight or nine, so it's not really an issue.

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[byron]

Frankly I am not sure where the line of demarcation lies. I think to a certain extent common sense applies. Ergo a 20 metre private vessel with a Skipper, two hands and Hostess would not be an unreasonable crew.
If something were to happen then the Skipper would be responsible on many fronts. Were there enough lifebelts, did everyone know where everything was, etc etc ad-infinutum. Know this... they would want someone's head to roll so the Skipper had better be sure he/she had every avenue covered. Last year I refused to take a craft out of St Kats because I considered it overloaded. She was 90' or so and as there were several people pissed I considered it too much a risk if they started playing the fool.

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[byron]

Whatever the circumstances, even within the limits an enquiry would look for an answer and a Scapegoat. As to penalties... I am afraid I don't know.

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[byron]

12 unless MCA approved for more + Skipper with appropriate qualifications.

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[Observer]

12 passengers is certainly fixed (under the regs I'm looking at). Your point about sleeping accommodation is OK but it's perfectly feasible, for a day trip, to have loads more than 12 on a 24m boat without being cramped. The tiddly 42'er we're buying is CE rated for 12 and I understand a similar boat was coded for 12 + 2.

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[whisper]

Probably yes in both cases. So we should know what our max. permitted load is shouldn't we. I think ours is six people on 23ft. Can't remember how heavy they should be though - wonder what the average Swede weighs - about an eighth of a Moose(sorry,Elk) I suppose.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by whisper on 09/09/2003 22:07 (server time).</FONT></P>