RYA Rules - OK

[jamesjermain]

Why so hot under the collar?

I really don't understand why people get so hot under the collar about the RYA being, or claiming to be the 'Governing Body' for boating and water sports. In some areas it is, de facto and in the absence of any other organisation, the Governing Body and is respected and listened to because of it. In other areas it isn't and thats fine too.

In the cruising field its 'governing' function includes training. The point has been well made elsewhere that, if the RYA could not claim to be the governing body, all our training certificates would be virtually worthless.

We cruisers are an independent lot and if we don't want to be governed we won't be. It is ironic that one of the RYAs chief functions as the 'governor' of cruising, is to fight all attempts by the authorities here and in Europe to introduce rules and regulations. The RYA is the last organisation to try to impose 'government' on cruising folk.

When necessary, though, being the Governing Body helps it represent us with bureaucrats without harming the way it interacts with its members.

JJ

 

[kimhollamby]

Governing vs representing

I don't agree with your comment about an ambition to sit back and govern; quite apart from anything else if that was the case surely the RYA would be headed down the 'we must have compulsory everything' route? It is certainly not doing that, despite a certain amount of pressure to do so from sections of its membership. Your comment also supposes that there are people at Eastleigh who don't feel the way that you do and about boating freedom and I think that is also not the case.

If you want to be worried about bodies with hidden agendas vis a vis freedom then there are worse examples you could get cautious about. On the inland waterways - British Waterways. At sea - the RNLI. Sorry to name the latter because we know of all the good work that the RNLI does but I am personally far more cautious about some of the language coming out of its press department and far more puzzled about some of the decisions it has taken of late. For the record I am an RNLI Offshore member as well as an RYA member, so no particular axe to grind. Also for the record I'm not wearing a moderator's hat here and not attempting to stifle debate. But I am worried, as a boat enthusiast, at the continued drive for polarisation into ever smaller interest groups.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Aeolus_IV]

Re: Some numbers

From my experience at dinghy clubs on the coast over the last 20 years I can only agree that interest in sailing seems to be on the decline. If that is reflected across the boating arena I can't say - but as this was traditionally the cheapest and simplest route into boating I would be concerned. Something is changing out there.

Jeff.

 

[zefender]

Re: RYA\'s P.R.O?

My point was only that you and I (probably alongside a few other members) are different (apart from your stinkie tendancies natch) in that you have been to Eastleigh and met the folk down there - and I haven't. Your view of the organisation may be entirely correct. I can only base my views on what I see and hear - one reason why I watched the forum BB with interest. I remain convinced that the RYA is sending out an incoherent message about its purpose and is struggling to cope with its broad (and sometimes conflicting) membership interests, its political/regulatory role and its apparent lack of real passion for boating. It's not terminal and I was pleased to see that it has recognised the problem exists, which is a pretty good start.

It is not unusual for member based organisations to lose some of their member franchise as they enter new agendas and/or grow. Those that regain them recognise early on the importance of effective communication or, dare I say it, spin.

 

[tcm]

Re: declining boating RYA figures

1. Boating in the uk is colder than med. With increased affluence, far more people can afford to go boating abroad. RYA irrelevant to them.

or

2. Many boaties are perceived as snooty, by non-boaters. Amongst boaties, the raggies perhaps regard themselves as a cut above the stinkies. Perhaps. But the raggies often perceive the RYA as being even snootier, which is very very snooty indeed. As a result, all newbies are put off the elitist, unwelcoming sailing, and decided to buy a nice powerboat instead! Which seem lots more fun. Raggies get even more cheesed off, some of whom pack in the sailing cos too much wash (as Michael Grade remarked) but in fact it's because they are crap at racing. Soon ,with smaller number of people to thrash, then some others pack in the racing too, cos hardly any large races. Then stinkies will pack it in too, cos marinas will cost too much. And all because the RYA a bit snooty.

 

[jimi]

Re: declining boating RYA figures

This is a stunning analysis but fatally flawed .. Its dying because snooty people are too snooty to shag thus failing to get snootiness perpetuated. In some quarters snootiness and sootiness have become confused thus leading to those wishing to be upwardly mobile acquiring engined aquatic chariots. The real reason numbers are declining is because more people are sailing at night now and nobody can see them. IMHO

 

[Aeolus_IV]

Re: declining boating RYA figures

I'm not sure that it is "stunningly flawed" - though I might feel offended (as a percieved snooty person who chooses rags to whisks). But I have seen an increasing difficulty in our local dingy clubs retaining their membership level. A core membership of long-termers seems fixed in place, but the rest of the memships floats in and out (no pun intended) - only those people who get in with the core membership stay for any length of time. It just seems too cliquey, perpetuating the snooty view held by those "not in the inside". If this view is held across the range of marine sports it's no suprise that number are falling.

Sorry - probably taking this too seriously.

Jeff.

 

[jimi]

Re: declining boating RYA figures

Actually I agree. I also belong to a dinghy sailing club which shall remain nameless but the core coterie are determined to keep the club to themselves and things the way they like it. So, as you say, new members join and there is quite a high attrition rate as the coterie decide whether their face fits or not. Personally I find some dinghy sailors amongst some of the most obnoxious individuals I have ever met! But I just ignore 'em and when they really get to me, I indulge in some 'retribution' sailing (in the laser not the Beneteau!!).

 

[Aeolus_IV]

Re: declining boating RYA figures

Despite being in the same club for close to 20 years I never really "made it". Through the last 10 years I spent practically every weekend and wednesday evening there, but always sailed an "unfashionable" Contender rather than the latest soap dish and asymetric combination. Yes, dinghy sailors can be rude and obnoxious - especially those under 10s sailing Optimists.

Moving into "big boat" sailing was interesting in so much as before my wife and I bought a boat we never felt comfortable at the yacht club and getting a ride difficult. Now we're owners, everyone knows us, I'm sure we could get a ride whenever we like. We're the same people, so what's different? I can only see that having bought a boat we've demonstarted a comitment to our chosen sport, so now doors are openning for us. As yet, I haven't seen the same levels of cliquiness at the yacht club, perhaps simply making it through the door is a big-enough hurdle that you're taken at face value after that with nothing more to prove.

Aren't people strange?

Jeff.

 

[kimhollamby]

Spin doctor replies [smile]

Well, I have to say here comes the point of agreement; balancing all the interests must be like the crewman with one foot on the boat, the other on the quay, who suddenly realises the warps are loose. I should know because it was just like that running a boating title, even where the interest was relatively polarised (motorboating) - accusations of bias regarding sea versus river, small versus large, fast versus slow, were meat and drink in the in tray. I enjoyed all forms of motorboating (and sailing for that matter), counting myself somewhat lucky to get a chance to get involved a variety of craft and cruising areas but not everyone feels that way of course.

Strangely enough it's one reason that I enjoy the forums. There are a few mud pies thrown around here from time to time but generally everyone mucks in together when the right subject comes up and somehow that's the balance that the RYA has to achieve if it is to act with weight of numbers.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[kimhollamby]

The out crowd

I too experienced being part of the 'out-crowd' at a gravel pit club in the 1970s. Didn't worry me too much and in fact took great pleasure in beating sprogs of in-crowd at a junior series when not knowing much about sail racing (ie about the same level of knowledge I have today). Ditto beating the Fireball specialists one Easter with Dad when the wind was so strong that everyone sank or blew rigs except our little Mermaid dinghy. Our family joined mostly for the chances of sailing on what was often an empty lake on Saturdays and summer evenings although Mum and Dad valiantly struggled through a few Sunday races on a useless PY. But cannot say, with hindsight, we felt the experience was very inclusive.

Regeneration at club level is something that has been bugging me for some time, in terms of trying to work out what might help turn it around.

Look no further than the 20-30 age bracket to realise where the problem is. Expectations immediately push people towards the unaffordable end of the market, at which financial and time commitments push them away. Kids are not badly catered for at many clubs, but as a girl in her late teens recently told me at a sailing club I was visiting, there's not much for her age group and no real effort to better that it would seem unless she was aiming at least for an Olympic medal.



kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Twister_Ken]

At the risk of repeating myself...

The RYA is too broad a church. If I had a dictionary of quotations in the office I'm sure I could find some wiseacre who once said "You cannot be all things to all men, all of the time".

The RYA should deliberately splinter itself in specialist divisions with only loose links back to "head office" on matters like legal. And then those specialist sections should get their backsides off the soft furnishings, get out on the water, into the bars, down by the lock gates, on the beach, wherever, and meet with, talk and respond to the people that pay their bills.

When did you last meet an RYA honcho (and not just the stand girlies at the boat shows)? In my case it was only once, when I was being quite serious about offshore racing, and we had a RYA racing coach come and look us over, talent spotting for the Admiral's Cup boats.

But there is probably no recorded example in history of a conglomerate breaking itself up willingly. Hence, the Decline and Fall of the RYA Empire.

 

[Aeolus_IV]

Re: The out crowd

Yes, there has been a push by the RYA in recent years for clubs to attain various levels of recognition, with clubs needing to provide specific ranges of equipment, facilities and training by recognised trained staff. Failure to do so seemed to mean loss of RYA recognition, and the associated issues this might bring about.

Being on the clubs sailing committee at the time it looked virtually impossible for the club to make it, and apparently this was all in the name of training a new generation of youth sailors (presumable for the Olyimpics etc).

Now, I am all for setting and maintaining standards, but the committee felt that the club was threatenned by these requirements, and this placed an even higher burden on those running the club. Just when we needed to understand why sailing was getting less popular, additional pressure was placed on the club and its officers.

This combined with a move towards higher tech dingies costing more and requiring more skill simply to keep upright has caused the damage. People these days seem to want immediate results, but are not happy with unfashionable craft they have to learn in, and the time it takes to learn to sail competantly. It took me 12 months of sailing a Contender before I completed a race without a single capsize (and I could sail before I started this). I saw very few others after me who took this effort (or maybe I'm slow ), those that did invariable found the effort worth it regardless of boat type.

Sadly I am no longer a member of that club, and as I look back at it with membership now a quarter of what it was when I originally joined I wonder how long it will remain.

Jeff.

 

[whisper]

Re: The out crowd

The problem of re-generation at club level seems to be common to most clubs, over a wide area of sports, not just sailing. I've been a member of various Golf and Tennis clubs all of which have the same problem. They all had a dearth of girls aged 13 - 35 and boys 18 - 35. Why the girls disappear from club life earlier than the boys I'm not sure, not having had a daughter.
From 18 - 30 people move away from home to Uni or new jobs and either can't afford the time or the money needed for sport.
The cliquey nature of many Sailing clubs is no worse than that at most other sports clubs. This is usually caused by the fact that the only people willing to run the clubs are of one of two types . They either enjoy the "limelight" of "being in charge" of others - they are usually retired. Or and perhaps more often, they do it because no one else will. Volunteers with organisational talent in the 30-50 age group are often very hard to find as they are too busy with work or family. Committee members have therefore been stuck with their job for many years and tend to have become set in their ways.
I believe that the RYA also suffers from appearing to be similar to this Club stereotype. I continue to pay my subs however, because like others, I believe that at present they are the only organisation within the sport large enough to be taken notice of by Governments etc. I also agree that perhaps a change of name to something like The British Boating Association may also help in creating a more modern feel . Mind you, changing the name of the Royal Mail didn't go down too well did it!

 

[Iota]

well Mr Spinning Doctor

Perhaps you can answer a simple question to which the answer is NOT either it is your duty to or you have to support etc or discounts

Question: Why should I an average cruising sail yachtsman re-join the RYA.?

over to...

Courtesy is an iota but makes the world go round

 

[jwatson]

Re: Some numbers

Sorry, but I am away from office for 10/14 days so don't have access to data. Will ask colleague to reply....
Best,
John

 

[kgi]

Re: Some numbers

Kim has anyone looked in the other direction? why people left the RYA? what is the trend of people letting there membership lapse and why?......keith

 

[Cornishman]

Re: Not just semantics

In this day and age the use of semantics is often called 'dumbing down'.
Why lose the 'Royal' ? Royal patronage does quite a bit, without shouting about it or ringing the church bells. Take a look at The Princess Royal's engagements diary sometime.
Why get rid of the word 'yachts'? Many a magazine would have to change its title, and is our Ellen really attempting the Jules Verne in a boat? Leave boats on the boating lake, please.

 

[zefender]

Re: Not just semantics

It could also be argued that royal patronage is an older form of 'dumbing down'. Princess Anne has a wide range of interests and is patron of over 220 different charities. She's one of only 2 brit IOC committee members too. How much time is it likely that she spends thinking about yachting? She's in Kosovo at the moment as part of her Save the Children interests - probably a more valuable use of her attention.

I have taken a look at Princess Anne's diary for the next couple of weeks. It is:

The Princess Royal a.m.
4th February to 5th February will visit Kosovo.

6th The Princess Royal 6:50 p.m.
Patron, The Instutute of Logistics and Transport, will attend the Sir Robert Reid Railway

Lecture at the Royal Institute of British Architects, 66 Portland Place, London W1.

11th
> The Princess Royal will open Barnet Hospital, Wellhouse Lane, High Barnet, Hertfordshire.
The Princess Royal p.m.
President, The Princess Royal Trust for Carers, will attend a Luncheon at Moss Pharmacy, Fern House, 53-55 High Street, Feltham, Middlesex.
12th
The Princess Royal
President, The Princess Royal Trust for Carers, will launch the Gateshead Carers Development Plan at the Valley Centre, Princess Park, Princess Way North, Team Valley, Gateshead, Tyne and Wear.
The Princess Royal a.m.
President of the Patrons, Crime Concern, will attend a North East Showcase at Merriott Hotel Metrocentre, Metrocentre, Gateshead, Tyne and Wear.
The Princess Royal
will open the Intermediate Care Centre at Farmborough Court, Brentford Avenue, Town End Farm, Sunderland, Tyne and Wear.
13th
> The Princess Royal 11:30 a.m.
will address the Sentry Farming Conference at Chilford Hall, Linton, Cambridgeshire.
The Princess Royal 2:45 p.m. Chancellor, University of London, will open the MRC Social, Genetic and Developmental Psychiatry Research Centre Building, De Crespigny Park, Denmark
Hill, London SE5.
The Princess Royal 5:00 p.m.
President, Save the Children Fund, will hold a Committee Meeting and Private Appeal Dinner at Buckingham Palace.
Friday, 14th February
The Princess Royal
President, UK Fashion Exports, will visit Business Link for London, Solar House, 1-9 Romford Road, Stratford, London E15.
Sunday, 16th February
The Princess Royal 3:00 p.m.
Patron, Scottish Rugby Union, will attend the Scotland v Ireland match at Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh.

I'm, aware that Princes Anne carries out 450 'engagements' a year, more than any other royal I suspect. Some might question whether the above is actually a gruelling schedule but nevertheless, my argument is about the signals that royal patronage sends out to the wider community. I think it makes the RYA and, to some degree by association, the rest of sailing/ boating as the snooty pursuits of toffs, akin to fox-hunting (but let's not go there!). If sailing/boating is truly a 'sport for all' then I'm not sure royal patronage helps convey that.

As for many magazines having to change their title just because the RYA chooses to, well why would they? Does Practical Boat Owner feel irrelevent because the RYA is so named? It is incidentally, the most read sailing mag of all.

I'm not entirely sure what Ellen Mc is whizzing round the world in! It has very little in common with most people's boats. Whilst in dictionary definition terms it is a yacht, the fact that it is financially and practically way beyond the means of most people only serves to make my point that the word yacht expresses something unattainable (and therefore a bit irrelevent) for most people. By the way, I learned to sail on the boating lake, but not on a yacht! SInce RYA now speaks for windsurfing, PWCs, RIBs et al, are these really yachts?

 

[Strathglass]

Re: Not just semantics

I was a member of the RYA at one time. At least I was a member of a sailing club that was affiliated to the RYA. I think the senario was something like <font color=red> So your club members want to race their boats, then the club must be affiliated to the RYA. You have xxx members that will cost you £yyy every year. </font color=red> It was not as expensive as individual membership but is each club member counted as an RYA member by the number crunchers.
I did , about fifteen years ago, attend a 'yachty' reception, organised by the RYA in a big London hotel with the Princess Royal present. What was really impressive was how knowledgable and how well briefed she was. She works very hard.

The thing I found a bit over the top was the fact that I had no option but to hire a reefer jacket in order to strut around in the correct 'uniform' to match the 'royal' occasion.

Iain