RYA Rules - OK

[Shanty]

Picked up a freebie copy of "All At Sea" in the chandlers recently. Just about to bin it when I noticed an article by the RYA Olympic Manager, complete with the RYA logo, and the following message:

"The Royal Yachting Association is the national governing body for all forms of sailing, windsurfing, motorboating and powerboat racing".

OK, this would have been written well before Kim's RYA Question Time session, but is it indicative of the RYA's view of itself? It would be interesting to see comment from the RYA - either attempting to justify its delusions of grandeur, or apologising to the many cruising yotties who weren't aware they had a governing body, and didn't particularly want one in the first place.

I know we have been here before, but remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

 

[ccscott49]

That is how the RYA see themselves, that's one of the reasons I've stopped the RYA and joined the CA, they are more representative for the cruising yachtsman, especially an overseas cruising one. IMHO, (I'm sure to get blagged or handbagged again!)

 

[Twister_Ken]

Well spotted that man...

...but it will probably clear up with the penecillin.

 

[kimhollamby]

How effective is CA?

Before you read this I have no agenda - not a defence of the RYA but fascinated to understand a bit more the perception that the CA is more actively representative for cruising types.

I understand that even CA members here have admitted that it is a 'private club' and I also understand that it is only capable of limited lobbying due to structure and resource. It was also stated that it might not be able to appear on the ybw forums for those reasons (although I have not approached CA and vice versa). I have very much enjoyed my visits to CA and could be very comfortable in joining it. But I don't sense that it actively lobbies on all of the matters that concern boatowners - certainly here on the magazines we see no activity and comment from the CA on anything other than promotion of its publications - unless I've slipped off its list.

RYA on the other hand is at least in regular discussion with government on a wide range of relevant issues. Like any body it has vested interests but it does have the kind of momentum that any successful defence of freedom requires.

Is it not the case that much of the concern comes from language employed? For example motorboaters instantly think that 'Yachting' in Royal Yachting Association means it's not for them; 'Royal' carries a stigma for some; 'governing' goes right up the noses of those who don't want to be governed by anything.

I suspect bodies such as the RSPB, which frustrate the whatsits out of some of us by its ability to argue, quite inaccurately sometimes, environment case over boating, actually has plenty of critics amongst the twitchers for favouring one breed over another, having 'royal' in its name and so on. But surely a much more specialist interest such as boating needs to be able stand united behind one body, whatever its flaws (perceived and actual)?

Incidentally, as it was mentioned here the RYA has indicated it will come back for another forum session in six months. And it is monitoring comments on these forums.






kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[kgi]

Re: How effective is CA?

We might stand united behind the RYA if we knew they would stand by us......keith

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: How effective is CA?

Kim,

The CA does quite a lot, but doesn't blow its trumpet. At <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.cruising.org.uk/ratsonyourbehalf.htm>http://www.cruising.org.uk/ratsonyourbehalf.htm</A> there is a list of stuff that RATS - Regulations and Technical Sevices Committee - was involved with as at September last year. I'm sure some of these things have know dropped off the list and others will have replaced them.

 

[kimhollamby]

Alternative language?

<font color=blue>"The Royal Yachting Association is the national governing body for all forms of sailing, windsurfing, motorboating and powerboat racing".</font color=blue>

When we have questioned this statement before it generally boils down to the fact that this is the language that government understands. The MCA and the like is never going to indulge in negotiations with hundreds of small bodies and individuals; more often than not it is looking to deal with one lead body, preferably one with some weight.

I don't want to be governed by anyone either when cruising from A to B; ironically I am of course - by IMO regs, by the terms of my insurance policy, by the government in whose waters I am sailing in, by local authorities and, hopefully, by common sense. The RYA doesn't enter into it.

So if 'govern' is inaccurate in the case of cruising and also inflamatory, in order to carry weight as a boatowners' representative what should the RYA's stated terms of reference be when issuing releases for media outside of the specialist boating press?

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: How effective is CA?

<font color=blue>Maritime and Coastguard Agency
Proposals for Tax on Leisure Boats. Liaison with RYA to ensure that the yachting industry speaks as one on this subject. Establishing with MCA what is proposed.

Portland Harbour
Proposals to ban leisure boats from part of the harbour. RYA is taking the lead on this and keeping the CA informed.</font color=blue>

Both from the CA website (thanks Twister_Ken for the link). That seems to suggest there is some perceived value in RYA from CA does it not?

I know there has been a split of opinion on Dibden Bay but are there other issues where the two bodies are divided?



kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Alternative language?

The RYA had better look like it's the 'governing body' or European governments will stop recognising all those ICCs, CEVNI endorsements from RYA examiners and VHF operator's certificates on the basis they're merely issued by some sort of British sailing club. And we don't want that, do we?

 

[BarryH]

Re: Alternative language?

There you have a point. If the EU were to latch onto that what recourse would all the people that have taken the courses have. Maybe they should change the governing bit to The Voice of boaters, Dunno, you can't please all the people all the time.

 

[zefender]

Re: Not just semantics

There's a mile of a difference between 'lobbying' and 'governing'. Anyone can lobby (i.e. put pressure on) regardless of what issue or who they are representing. To 'govern', one needs authority/power and (usually) the endorsement of those being 'governed'. The RYA does not have that authority/mandate. It's membership numbers over the past 10 years have not kept up with the considerable growth in boating. It recognises that it has problems with regard to member 'affinity' yet still uses language which may or may not carry weight with the government (I would doubt it does) but also which irritates and disenfranchises large sections of the people it purports to represent. The recent 'pro bono' management consultants report suggests a re-organisation of the committee structure, inter alia. In my view it needs a rather more root and branch reform to remind itself of what it is really there for. Being the 'national governing body' is a role or maybe an ambition. It's not a purpose. And it's not why I'm a member.

To bring the RYA into the 21st century, I'd ditch the 'royal' bit since it harks back to times when patronage meant something.

I'd change 'yachting' to 'boating' since the former word had elitist tones.

..and I'd think about how it consults and represents and what it really wants to do before speaking as if it speak for me.

I can understand your defence of the RYA, Kim. You've met them and directly seen the work they do. I haven't. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

[kimhollamby]

Some numbers

...and am not paricularly defending the RYA as such, rather than trying at least to defend the notion that defence of freedom needs a focus especially in this day and age. That's probably seen as splitting hairs but hopefully you understand the motive.

Real off the top of my head stuff here but RYA membership has probably grown from a little under 70,000 10 years ago to getting close to 100,000 now. How you cross-compare that to existing boating population gets very tricky. Detailed research conducted on behalf of one of the business magazines that I look after (IBI) reveals that the UK boat park can safely be called at no more than 415,000 for most craft that the RYA represents, except for windsurfers (the number does however include sailing dinghies and PWCs). The RYA's own data doesn't give it a detailed breakdown of all member categories, although I believe from everything I've heard that it does have a strong cruising yachtsman base.

Can anyone give me any numbers for CA membership? Would stress not backing any horse; I am genuinely interested to maintain a balanced view on this personally and my reasons for jumping in last night were to learn a little more about the whole picture, given recent comments.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Twister_Ken]

CA membership

"The Cruising Association is a world-wide association of nearly 5,000 members, founded in 1908. Currently it has 13 local sections (in the United Kingdom) and nearly 300 Honarary Local Representatives throughout the world. The objects of the Association are to encourage cruising in yachts and boats and to protect the interests of yachtsmen."

Above, from the introduction to the current members' yearbook.

 

[zefender]

Re: Some numbers

So your figures suggest an annual growth in membership of around 4% . If that's true, individual members ( as opposed to indirect club affiliated) then that's not at all bad.

I agree, figures are difficult to find but I'd be most surprised if the number of boats in the UK had grown annually only by this amount during the period. Some evidence is at http://www.interconnectionconsulting.com/english/wavesonthehighseas.htm.
However, my comment was based on the number of people boating, not just the number of boats. Chartering, sailing holidays, boat shares etc are likely to have had an impact on participation levels. Similarly, the trend towards larger boats will probably have increased the number of people taking part (in some way) with boating. Given the useful life of boats, any new boats being built will be likely to be largely incremental to the 'park'. Excluding dinghies, windsurfers and PWCs for a moment, maybe John Watson of MDL has some info on marina growth (sic) over the past 10 years and price/demand curves would suggest pretty healthy growth in boating. What has happened to sailing magazine readership over the period?

I would have thought that monitoring the scale and shape of boating and RYA membership alongside it would be a pretty essential performance indicator for the RYA.

I've no idea of CA membership. I suspect it is very small indeed by comparison. But, point is, I don't think it purports to govern anyone.

 

[jamesjermain]

Re: Some numbers

The McKinsey report indicated that the number of people actively taking part in boating in all its forms, as opposed to numbers of boats sold or numbers of boat owners, has actually declined in the last five years (I don't know how these figures were arrived at). This is one reason why the RYA's twin pronged strategy for the next five years includes a campaign with other authorities, including the BMF and, incidentally, the CA, to make boating more popular.

JJ

 

[kimhollamby]

More numbers

IBI's 2001 estimate for total UK marina park is 61,066 (including inland), up from 55,219 in 1998. Around a third of those are inland, including narrow canal berths. Obviously that excludes all other forms of mooring and dry boat parks.

Hard to make an assessment as you say but the 4 per cent growth over 10 years has outperformed boat show attendance and also it has outperformed general trends for paid-for magazines; both of these areas have attracted an increasingly 'higher value' audience but not seen a growth in bums on seats across the decade.

Perhaps some of the RYA's growth has come through relatively new sectors such as windsurfing and PWCs, but whatever the reason the growth can probably be taken as healthy and, given the fact that member numbers are stated in annual accounts, reliable. I believe quite a bit of it has come in recent years because, again from memory, membership hovered around the 70,000 mark for quite a long time.

Your point about participants versus boatowners a good one; once you get into participant estimates the numbers go sky high...and are generally plucked from the same medium!

However, at risk of incurring someone's wrath (and acknowledging both that there are exceptions and that trends will change) many of the participants who are less financially committed are also less committed to the sport/pasttime of sailing and they tend to be less active with things such as membership of clubs and associations, readership of magazines (except on an ad-hoc basis) and attendance at shows. For those of you who don't own a boat and who violently disagree with this, don't kick me; I'm talking trends not specifics.

I also do think that situation will change as more people turn to occasional involvement in boating through the emerging ways in which they can do this. Freedom, arguably, will become even more important for the occasional charterer who might otherwise be completely excluded from boating by constraints imposed upon it.





kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[zefender]

Re: More numbers

Interesting details about survey co-sponsored by Sunsail, RYA and BMIF on:
http://www.marinedata.com/NewsDetails.asp?NewsID=108

Seems that 'participation' in boating is greater than darts, tennis and er soccer (shurely shome mishtake).

Obviously, the numbers won't tell all the story anyway. Maybe the real issue is about perception of the RYA's priorities given its ever broadening interest base.

I still can't help feeling that, given a free choice, the RYA would, in its bones, prefer to be the governing body, than the representative body of boaters. And that's its problem, I think.

 

[jimi]

Re: More numbers

The survey is too wide to draw any conclusions about anything

"canoeing; water skiing; other small sail boat activities; rowing; windsurfing; using personal watercraft; general motor boating; yacht cruising; power boating; small sail boat racing; canal boating; and yacht racing"

 

[zefender]

Re: More numbers

Agreed. But, assuming it doesn't include passenger ferries, all of them 'qualify' for RYA memberhip.

 

[jimi]

Re: More numbers

Well made point!