RYA Certs an idea...

[capnsensible]

Can't comment on any of that, but I really do like the idea of a 9-day practical & theory combined. You are not faffing about with pointless classroom exercises, you are doing it for real - that is such a motivator. You see the outcome as you are making the passage - best possible feedback there is.

Light ID - done for real on a night passage, colregs, again applied as it happens. How can it not be good? Do it in a classroom & you will forget half of it if you don't follow up with the practical quickly. Do it for real & it really does stick.

And kindly take your hand out of my trousers - err, unless you are female.

The combination courses are great. Ive been gobbing off about them for years. People love it. However, to re iterate, corners are being cut to market its appeal for the instant gratification, no retention. I suggest, do it properly over 10, or better, 12 days. Or, RYA, change the syllabus.....

Its not my hand, its the wide boys, thewont just whip yer wonga!

 

[prv]

9 Days to learn to the rules, navigation, tides, compass work, boat handling, power and sail, mooring, anchoring, MOB, gas safety, Meteorology, equipment, engine checks, safety equipment, deck work, plus achieve the required mileage etc...

All you'd do is confuse matters as people mixed the old and new names.

What problem are you trying to solve, anyway?

No problem nothing is wrong if you believe that all the above is perfectly sensible and achievable

Why do you think my post has anything to do with ten-day combined / reduced courses?

a) I'd never even heard of them until now
b) I posted before the topic was ever mentioned in this thread.

I was responding only to Onesea's suggestion of messing all the names around.

Pete

 

[mcframe]

Can't comment on any of that, but I really do like the idea of a 9-day practical & theory combined. You are not faffing about with pointless classroom exercises, you are doing it for real - that is such a motivator. You see the outcome as you are making the passage - best possible feedback there is.

Light ID - done for real on a night passage, colregs, again applied as it happens. How can it not be good? Do it in a classroom & you will forget half of it if you don't follow up with the practical quickly. Do it for real & it really does stick.

I'm with Searush - perhaps if we add an O-level in geography and some DoE orienteering experience to the prerequisites. If someone has that (and who doesn't?) , and a bit of dinghy sailing then the 9-day is perfect.

The ability to read the excellent Haire/Selman books beforehand is taken for granted. An (admittedly *very* techie) friend read through DS & YM Theory in about 90 mins (+ almanac & charts) anchored off the IOW last year and proclaimed "It all makes sense in theory; show me how it works in practice!" on the next day for the return trip.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Competent crew = Basic Crew =Knows the basics but has very little experience needs time to get full competence.
Day Skipper = Able Helm = Should have ability to days sail a given boat in familiar waters/ none to challenging situations.
Coastal Skipper = Basic Skipper = Capable of .......
Yacht Master = Yacht Master

I agree the titles cause confusion but I don't think they should use names at all, just go with:

RYA Cruising 1
RYA Cruising 2
RYA Cruising 3
RYA Cruising 4

That way you have no implied capability from the title so it's impossible to get the wrong idea.

They do it with other courses & they've done it in the past so clearly there's no real objection to it.

I reckon that the misleading psuedo-military course titles exist purely to help course sales to the pretentious.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What problem are you trying to solve, anyway

I reckon the existing titles give a false impression of how good the holder is. From the endless squabbles on here it's clear I'm not alone.

 

[jonjo]

Just an idea, how about changing the name of the certs and leaving the syllabuses alone?

I have an aversion to formal education but even I can recognize the RYA training scheme is successful, it is not fundamentally broken so why try to fix it. "Day Skipper" is far more apt than a helming competence award because the skill set of a day skipper is much more diverse than helming.

The only fault with the RYA scheme is the Competent Crew cert, in this respect the RYA are really in bed with the commercial aspirations of sailing schools. The certificate sets false expectations in the mind of consumers. It should either be scrapped or downgraded to a "Basic Crewing attendance certificate".

 

[RobF]

I have an aversion to formal education but even I can recognize the RYA training scheme is successful, it is not fundamentally broken so why try to fix it. "Day Skipper" is far more apt than a helming competence award because the skill set of a day skipper is much more diverse than helming.

The only fault with the RYA scheme is the Competent Crew cert, in this respect the RYA are really in bed with the commercial aspirations of sailing schools. The certificate sets false expectations in the mind of consumers. It should either be scrapped or downgraded to a "Basic Crewing attendance certificate".

Not sure I agree with this. I've found that people who have done competent crew courses are pretty competent as crew. They've got to be given appropriate direction by the skipper (e.g. please tie on the fenders on the port side using a clove hitch), but at least they know what a fender is, where the port side is and how to tie a clove hitch.

The saving grace for the DS theory is that it is a written exam and can be taken by those with no formal instruction, 4 days instruction or 5 days instruction. I think it could be taken in four days so long as it is supplemented by instruction under passage as well. IIRC, the VHF course should be 2 days long, but most people to do a 1 day condensed course. Can't see many arguing about this.

 

[jonjo]

Not sure I agree with this. I've found that people who have done competent crew courses are pretty competent as crew.

The problem is comp crew students are easy £££ fodder for sailing schools, they are at the bottom of the tuition pile in a mixed ability crew and get a raw deal.

Their dissatisfaction has been discussed here over the years, the end result is that it discredits the bottom of the RYA training pyramid, who knows what the consequential damage is.

 

[webcraft]

The problem is comp crew students are easy £££ fodder for sailing schools, they are at the bottom of the tuition pile in a mixed ability crew and get a raw deal.

Their dissatisfaction has been discussed here over the years, the end result is that it discredits the bottom of the RYA training pyramid, who knows what the consequential damage is.

I've never experienced this dissatisfaction from comp crew students, or read about it on here. Have you any links to this type of comment?

- W

 

[jonjo]

I've never experienced this dissatisfaction from comp crew students

We Brits don't complain about poor service do we, instead we gripe on forums or TripAdvisor.

Have you any links to this type of comment?

No but do you recall the unhappy lady who was not impressed with a Poole based sea school. About 6 years ago.

 

[webcraft]

. . . the misleading psuedo-military course titles exist purely to help course sales to the pretentious.

What is 'military' or 'pretentious' about 'Day Skipper'? It describes exactly the competence the course is designed to achieve.

RYA training works, it is not compulsory and most candidates consider it value for money. No-one on here believes that those who have had no formal training are de facto inferior in any way.

Your antipathy suggests that perhaps you have some bizarre feeling of inferiority because you are not the posessor of one of these 'pseudo-military' certificates - which is ridiculous. Get over it.

- W

 

[onesea]

"'Day Skipper'? It describes exactly the competence the course is designed to achieve."

Removing heated comments, I do think this is the the statement I would question..

I believe the course with present structure, gives them the basic knowledge to in time become a day skipper...

Another idea maybe there should be a pre-requisite days, mile etc to doing day skippers? Instead of including them in the course...

Or as some one said like dinghy sailing Levels: 1, 2, 3, 4,



PRV Sorry did not mean to misquote you...

 

[webcraft]

"'Day Skipper'? It describes exactly the competence the course is designed to achieve."

Removing heated comments, I do think this is the the statement I would question..

I believe the course with present structure, gives them the basic knowledge to in time become a day skipper...

And what exactly is your level of familiarity with the content, structure and presentation of the course? Did one once? Or have you been more involved with the Cruising Scheme?

The candidate's weaknesses (and strengths) are made quite clear to them, and a certificate is awarded if the instructor believes the candidate poseses the basic ability to take a yacht - with crew - out in familiar waters by day and get it back safely. Which isn't rocket science, lets face it - look at the people on here who seem to manage it

Of course, if the recipient of the certificate doesn't actually do any for years then they may well forget most of what they have learned. That is not the fault of the scheme.

- W

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... I believe the course with present structure, gives them the basic knowledge to in time become a day skipper...

No, not in time, at the end of the course they are a day skipper if they understand the syllabus elements. Various levels of understanding and degrees of skill will exist at the end of the course.

 

[Babylon]

An old mate of mine told me he was a Day Skipper. Turned out that he did the practical week as a spur-of-the-moment jolly without ever having done any theory or gone sailing as crew, or indeed without having ever read a book on sailing.

When I did my YM Coastal prep week, there were three DS attendees on the school boat. None had done the theory or done any more sailing than a couple of weekends of CC.

But my main point, especially a propos the combined 9- and 10-day courses, is that theoretical knowledge takes time - and homework/practice in addition to the classroom instruction - to bed down properly. I don't see how anyone can obtain more than a sketchy understanding of the items listed below without structured, stable-platform teaching, plus the opportunity in their own time between classes to review the material and ensure that the theory sticks:

* Colregs
* Lights/Shapes
* Course plotting and position-fixing theory
* Tides and tidal heights
* Boat safety, passage planning and emergency proceedures
* Weather

Most of these items above require both conceptual understanding and repetitive learning, not a cursory explanation in the cramped space of yacht where people's brains are already struggling to get the practical side of things right.

The RYA method has indeed worked for me since I was a complete newcomer eight years ago. But I've taken no shortcuts, and have supplemented the basic theory and practical courses by a huge amount of reading (plus flip-cards, plus instructional software and DVDs) and getting out on the water as much as possible.

It doesn't really matter what the RYA call their courses, just so long as they don't mislead people into thinking they're more skilled than they really are at each level.

FWIW I singlehandedly teach newcomers to my craft to become skilled professionals over 40 full-time weeks every year. I introduce every new skill with a theoretical explanation, followed by demonstration, followed by student practice, followed by feedback - whereupon the core skills are then practiced and applied again and again and made more complex by the introduction of advanced techniques over practical projects over the rest of the course.

After 1600 hours of learning and practice, they leave with a vast series of skills and understandings. But, in order to 'hit and maintain the quality' they are inevitably still slow, and only time and experience in their workshops and in the marketplace - and the ability to recognise their own strenghts and weaknesses - will ensure their long-term success.

My 99p's worth.

 

[prv]

FWIW I singlehandedly teach newcomers to my craft to become skilled professionals over 40 full-time weeks every year.
[...]
After 1600 hours of learning and practice, they leave with a vast series of skills and understandings. But, in order to 'hit and maintain the quality' they are inevitably still slow, and only time and experience in their workshops and in the marketplace - and the ability to recognise their own strenghts and weaknesses - will ensure their long-term success.

Maybe your craft, whatever it may be, is significantly more difficult than "Skipper[ing] a small yacht in familiar waters by day"?

Pete

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The RYA method has indeed worked for me since I was a complete newcomer eight years ago. But I've taken no shortcuts, and have supplemented the basic theory and practical courses by a huge amount of reading (plus flip-cards, plus instructional software and DVDs) and getting out on the water as much as possible.

You know, most people who choose to learn to sail probably do the same to various degrees. The idea that the RYA pander to a bunch of minimalist egotistical, would be sailors who expect, after 5 days, 4 night hours and 100 miles to be skilled sailors, is just ridiculous.

The only downside I see is that certain Competent Crew skills are lacking in students who present themselves with sufficient time to commence a Day Skipper Course but have not carried out a Competent Crew Course. It detracts from the day skipper learning experience having to go back through skills that should at least be understood as a minimum.

A good competent crew would easily sail circles around a day skipper who just made the grade. I am okay with that as most people understand where they are in the competence continuum.

 

[webcraft]

. . . most people understand where they are in the competence continuum.

Indeed - and if they don't then it is very much part of an instructor's job to help make this clear.

- W

 

[Babylon]

Maybe your craft, whatever it may be, is significantly more difficult than "Skipper[ing] a small yacht in familiar waters by day"?

Pete

Yes, but my point about how adults learn new skills still maintains, even though the particular precision and extent of my craft does exceed that of skippering a small yacht etc.

Thank goodness, anyway for the RYA. Without their training ladder, whatever its faults, I wouldn't have had a clue how to go about getting into sailing!

 

[prv]

Thank goodness, anyway for the RYA. Without their training ladder, whatever its faults, I wouldn't have had a clue how to go about getting into sailing!

No argument with that


...except that if fewer people knew about sailing it wouldn't be so bloody expensive to keep a boat around here

Pete