RYA Certs an idea...

[rotrax]

Thank goodness, anyway for the RYA. Without their training ladder, whatever its faults, I wouldn't have had a clue how to go about getting into sailing!

And that should put an end to this thread as you have hit the nail right in the centre of its head!

 

[Sandy]

9 Days to learn to the rules, navigation, tides, compass work, boat handling, power and sail, mooring, anchoring, MOB, gas safety, Meteorology, equipment, engine checks, safety equipment, deck work, plus achieve the required mileage etc...

But its not nine days is it! Most people I know are up to Day Skipper standard before they get their ticket; they are not starting from no knowledge most have had a few seasons sailing either as crew or as a new boat owner. I've always seen the theory course as pre exam revision.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

Although not in line with the OP I agree with most of the sentiments on this thread. Why change the names, when the names are not actually perceived to be a problem by the vast majority of people who deliver or take these courses.

The thing I find dissapointing is this new idea of combining DS theory and practical in 9 days. 10% of the course has vanished!

Are people better sailors or is it a marketing scam??

Its hardly new.

There is a clear benefit in that training is consolidated into one programme, and the theory element are put straight into real world practice before students have a chance to forget them. Most Trainers will tell you that students only really learn something properly by doing it. The 9 day course allows them to spend the second half of the course really doing what they started to learn in the first half.

....A practical course must be a minimum of 116 hours and cover a minimum of 100 miles. How can that be shortened?

The practical part of the course is not shortened, its still the same hrs and days.

The theory course requires a minimum of 40 hours instruction plus exam time. So unless the students are subjected to over 10 hours a day theory, not including breaks, then some creative accounting is going on.

Not at all, everyone accepts that the 9 day course does less hours in the classroom than the traditional 5 day theory course, in fact it does a day less. The feeling is that many subject (safety brief, safety equipment etc) do not need to be covered in the classroom if they will be covered on the Wednesday of the course while students are actually on the yacht and as mentioned above this consolidated learning style is very effective at putting theory into practice before it is forgotten.

There are of course lots of time savers on the practical part of the course, not least that all the students have bonded on the theory course and know each other already by the time they roll onto the practical section. The quicker they get to know each other and relax, the quicker they start to perform together.

So unless the RYA course managers adjust the requirements then the scammers are operating outside the box to increase profits at the expense of student ability...

The RYA course managers did adjust the requirements. The RYA Training Department following agreement by the RYA Training Committee officially introduced the 9-day Dayskipper Course as a pucka way of doing the course. This happened about 7 years ago.

...The RYA has, I believe, the best cruising scheme around, thousands of overseas students a year tends to prove that. The 'get there quick' sharp operators are standing into danger of messing that up, I'm afraid.

Not sure who the "get there quick sharp operators are," certainly offering the 9-day course does not make a school a sharp operator. Its one of the methods the RYA sets down for a school to deliver training.

Its popular with students, its popular with Instructors and its populars with schools, I suspect that if you try talking to Instructors who teach the 9 day course you will hear from them that the results are very good

...The RYA has not provided 2 ways. The sharp chaps have called the shots and have been allowed to get away with it.

No, they have actually provided more than 2 ways

The shorebased Dayskipper course can be done as a correspondence paper based course, by E learning, over weekly night school, over weekends, as a 5-day course or as part of a 9-day course.

Likewise there are 4 formats for the practical course. It can be taken over a 2-day and a 3-day weekend, it can be taken as a 5 day course, it can be taken over 3 2-day weekends or it can be taken as part of a 9 day course.

The "sharp" chaps have not been allowed to "get away" with anything. The 9-day dayskipper Course is a fully recognised RYA sanctioned and respected way of delivering the course.

My point is that the courses at all levels are designed to be delivered in a timescale that allows the best learning for the majority. Now there are corners being cut outside the spirit of the scheme to make a buck.

Please do not imagine this 9 day stuff is being driven, in the slightest, but customer learning. Its all about hand down yer trousers.

It was driven by customer service and making the scheme accessible to people who have other commitments in their lives, such as families or jobs. No corners are being cut, in fact its is now far easier for a school to convince a potential students to take the full combined course than it used to be when many students face with the idea of 2-weeks off work simply skipped the theory course. As I suggested above try talking to the guys that actually deliver this course and see if they share your views.

Not sure what you mean by "hand down yer trousers"

To expand, that is certainly not my suggestion at all. 20 odd years experience has proved to me that for the vast majority of students, 10 days is barely enough without hacking bits off..... Its all about time, eh?

You are quite right, it is all about time. Their is no doubt that we could all write the best training scheme in the world where our students spend three years training with us before they were deemed a skipper, however it would be useless because no one would have the time to devote to this world class scheme, so we work with what we have got and the RYA have come up with a pretty good scheme that combines experience, shorebased training and practical training and they have put it into bite sized chunks that people can fit into their lifestyle. The 9-day dayskipper course happens to be one of these chunks and it fits in very nicely.

Sorry searush, just dont agree. 5 days for theory is barely enough for most students. Consider also that in your training career, how often were your classes held outdoors in the cold and rain, with tired people suffering from motion sickness? Can be done but it aint easy.

I guess it depend on how you teach them. There are thousands of students who have achieved the theory training in 4 days no problem, they have then gone straight onto a boat and further consolidated their new skills.

The combination courses are great. Ive been gobbing off about them for years. People love it. However, to re iterate, corners are being cut to market its appeal for the instant gratification, no retention. I suggest, do it properly over 10, or better, 12 days. Or, RYA, change the syllabus.....

Its not my hand, its the wide boys, thewont just whip yer wonga!

Yes 10 days or 12 days would be better but its not necessary. Students have the option to take further training if they want to. Not sure who the "wide boys" are. The 9-day course is well accpeted across the industry.

...Another idea maybe there should be a pre-requisite days, mile etc to doing day skippers? Instead of including them in the course...

There is a pre requisite days, mileage and night hours before the dayskipper.

 

[YachtAllegro]

The thing I find dissapointing is this new idea of combining DS theory and practical in 9 days. 10% of the course has vanished!

Are people better sailors or is it a marketing scam??

I can't see a problem with that. Don't forget, there was never a requirement to take DS theory before DS practical anyway, all you had to do was demonstrate in the practical that you understood the theory. I have both DS and CS practicals, but no theory certificates - I learnt it myself from the books. Its the practical certificates which count, the theory ones just say you've been to evening classes for a couple of terms. Provided the bar for the practical certificates hasn't been lowered I can't see a problem with giving people an opportunity to get to grips with the theory in a slightly abbreviated but more concentrated way - they'll still have to demonstrate they know it and can apply it in order to pass the practical.

Cheers
Patrick

 

[rotrax]

I can't see a problem with that. Don't forget, there was never a requirement to take DS theory before DS practical anyway, all you had to do was demonstrate in the practical that you understood the theory. I have both DS and CS practicals, but no theory certificates - I learnt it myself from the books. Its the practical certificates which count, the theory ones just say you've been to evening classes for a couple of terms. Provided the bar for the practical certificates hasn't been lowered I can't see a problem with giving people an opportunity to get to grips with the theory in a slightly abbreviated but more concentrated way - they'll still have to demonstrate they know it and can apply it in order to pass the practical.

Cheers
Patrick

+1! Just as first mate and I did. To teach yourself basic position fixing, basic nav., tides and chart symbols at home over a few weeks is not rocket science-as some would have us believe.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

Patrick, your post quotes Captain Sensible's words but with my name next to the quote. You are in fact in agreement with me while completely mis quoting me.

 

[YachtAllegro]

Doug Stormforce - Apologies, didn't realise the software gives the wrong attribution if you take a quote from within a quote, if you see what I mean. I've edited the post to correct it.

Cheers
Patrick

 

[capnsensible]

The RYA course managers did adjust the requirements. The RYA Training Department following agreement by the RYA Training Committee officially introduced the 9-day Dayskipper Course as a pucka way of doing the course. This happened about 7 years ago.

How odd that RYA publication G15/11 Syllabus and logbook at the latest ammendment has no mention whatsoever of this.....

Oh well, will just have to disagree on these points and I will continue to believe that students interests are not being best served by the 9 day combined course. The quality of the result will be the judge.

Edit, actually I have spoken to quite a few instructors who dont like the 9 day course so alledgedly I am not alone!!

CS