RYA and e-borders

[sailorman]

[Those who do not want to be identified will not be detected by this initiative.]

a bit like only criminals having hand guns then /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Mudplugger]

My limited and probably out of date understanding of the RYA structure, suggests that any member of an affilliated club can request action to be taken by the local regional committee...the regional ctee being elected representatives of the the local area sailing assoc. e.g. Eastern Region, having representation from: The Crouch, Colne & Blackwater, Orwell, Woodbridge, North Suffolk, Yarmouth & Broads, North Norfolk etc.....all affilliated clubs are asked to send representatives to the local Sailing Assoc. MOST DONT!... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif So hardly suprising that groundswell off public oppinion is not passed to Region and then to the Main RYA ctee,s...Have to say that the answer is for greater involvement by the water user nationally, against that Personal members have a direct em link to make feelings known! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Koeketiene]

[ QUOTE ]
No incentive for the RYA to object. Every new regulation puts them in a more (self) important position. They will be looking to police the leisure boating end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Afraid so - most RYA officials that have granted me an audience were Napoleon-like little empire builders. Full of their own self-importance and far removed from the boaters they are supposed to represent /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[gerry99]

I believe that e-borders is not something that we yachtsmen will get an exemption from. In theory it is no different to filling in the C1331 paper form and posting it in the Customs Postbox in a marina (although I suspect they were rarely read) when you depart for say the channel isles.

We need easy access to the internet at the port of departure or entry with ideally 24x7 availability. If port & marina offices made this available it may well make it tolerable, not everyone has a laptop and 3G data card on board. The other issue is the amount of advance notice we will be required to give. As weather is not 100% predicatable what happens if you file your passage details and then the weather causes a change to your plans? Are we expected to not go because the passage is not the one we filed the details of?

Like a lot of other legislation this government has introduced it is very poorly thought out from a practical perspective.

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

Agree. That could be two thousand seven hundred people arrested and three crimes discovered. A bad hit rate. I understand that it could be higher but I am choosing to massage the figures in favour of my own argument.

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that e-borders is not something that we yachtsmen will get an exemption from.

[/ QUOTE ]You will; if the UK joins the Schengen border control agreement, like the majority of other EU countries. Then border control moves to the real important EU borders, like Marocco, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. Not anymore trying to police movements from Belgium, France and Holland. Impossible and a waste of time. 'E-borders' then becomes a non-issue. Spend your tax money and effort where it matters. This is not like brain surgery; is it?

 

[JRiley]

A couple of years ago we got the ferry from Rosyth to Zeebrugges and back (apologies if the spelling is wrong). Security going out was tight. Passports checked. Everything through the security scanner. The works. Coming back, we all just marched onto the ferry with no checks at all. And not much in the way of checking when we got back to Rosyth.

Says it all really.

 

[Tranona]

Losing the old reporting system was one of the benefits of joining the EU. Freedom of movement was a big selling feature. However we are are now regressing because of our leaders' failure to deal with issues that are nothing to do with free movement of law abiding citizens.

The old system was unloved because it was unworkable and did not achieve anything other than irritate people. The proposed eBorders is only a 21st century version of the same thing, but infinitely more expensive and unworkable.

Hopefully, but don't hold your breath, the replacement government will can it because it might get them a few extra votes!

 

[sailorman]

so we the uk citizen sign out & in
jonny foreigner just arrives un announced

 

[tom52]

This Government controlling our borders........................
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Re-arrange the following into a well known phrase or saying.

Stable door shutting horse after the has the bolted.

 

[Marmalade]

Putting aside the argument about the RYA's role; I have to argue the case for better controls. I also have to declare an interest - I work for the UKBA although not for the e-borders programme.

There would be justifiable outcry if known terrorists, peadophiles and the like could enter the UK without let or hindrance. Watch lists and other early e-borders initiatives have made a significant contribution to the security of our borders and have indeed been instrumental in many cases where, without song or dance, undesirables have been prevented from entering the UK.

Future initiatives will assist in better identifying those who overstay the permission on their visa or seek to ignore our immigration laws in other ways.

I have to agree that the current proposals for leisure boating lack an understanding of the nature of our pastime. I will try and influence this from within - that is to say; encourage further, more effective consultation with real sailors.

Please don't seek to trash a very worthy set of initiatives because one element hasn't yet been fully thought through.

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
Watch lists and other early e-borders initiatives have made a significant contribution to the security of our borders and have indeed been instrumental in many cases where, without song or dance, undesirables have been prevented from entering the UK.

[/ QUOTE ]With all due respect, that is just nonsense. The idea that you can in this day and age control entry of 'undesirables' by erecting an artificial border in the English Channel is just nonsensical. With the volume of traffic flowing across the Channel, that just cannot be done. The only reasonable thing you can do is to control your outside EU borders, where there is still clearly a challenge but comparably a more manageable one. Then there will always be the odd criminals that enter your country, whatever the state of your border controls, but that has always been a local police issue and should be left at that. Anyone who places a large expectation on the efficiency of border controls to solve problems are usually disappointed. Local policing is much more efficient. They are the ones that act on 'Watch Lists' and the equivalents. Border guards might have worked in the 17th century, but they are not efficient today.

 

[cnh]

Well, Marmaklade, tell us why France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, to name but a few, haven't had ' justifiable outcry if known terrorists, peadophiles and the like could enter ... without let or hindrance.'

When people invoke 'peadophiles' [sic, sed non transit gloria], then you know they're on the losing end of a battle. Or writing for the Daily Mail.

 

[Seven Spades]

[ QUOTE ]
With all due respect, that is just nonsense. The idea that you can in this day and age control entry of 'undesirables' by erecting an artificial border in the English Channel is just nonsensical. With the volume of traffic flowing across the Channel, that just cannot be done. The only reasonable thing you can do is to control your outside EU borders, where there is still clearly a challenge but comparably a more manageable one. Then there will always be the odd criminals that enter your country, whatever the state of your border controls, but that has always been a local police issue and should be left at that. Anyone who places a large expectation on the efficiency of border controls to solve problems are usually disappointed. Local policing is much more efficient. They are the ones that act on 'Watch Lists' and the equivalents. Border guards might have worked in the 17th century, but they are not efficient today.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all respect that is just a stupid statement, what do you think the thousands of people camped in Calais would do if we joined the Schengan Agreement?

We need effective border controls very few would disagree with that. E-borders is not the way to do it.

Notification of departure via telephone or marina office, internet could be an option but we know it is not possible if you are departing from an anchorage. I would like to feel I am a free man and if I want to leave this country I should be free to do so without giving notice, frankly it is no one else's business.

Entry is another matter, I believe that it should be the responsibility of each traveller to make the report or their intended arrival, not the owner of the vessel. We need to be able to make other forms of reporting such as notification on arrival via VHF or mobile phone for those that have one. If I am travelling from abroad I do not want the hassle of collating all my passengers passport and credit card details etc, (Why do they need credit card details?). All we should need to do is VHF our passport numbers when we are say 6 miles offshore, they can bang them into the computer and if necessary they can send a rib to meet the boat. If they can't do that then what is the point , if they are going to make these regulations then they will have to put in the infrastructure to police it.If the infrastructure is there then they can operate it in a user friendly way.

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
With all respect that is just a stupid statement, what do you think the thousands of people camped in Calais would do if we joined the Schengan Agreement?

[/ QUOTE ]I think that is another non-issue and not at all relevant to this issue. The present population (14.03.2009) of the Calais refugee centre is 180. Very poor people and I wish them the best.

 

[matelot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch lists and other early e-borders initiatives have made a significant contribution to the security of our borders and have indeed been instrumental in many cases where, without song or dance, undesirables have been prevented from entering the UK.

[/ QUOTE ]With all due respect, that is just nonsense. The idea that you can in this day and age control entry of 'undesirables' by erecting an artificial border in the English Channel is just nonsensical. With the volume of traffic flowing across the Channel, that just cannot be done. The only reasonable thing you can do is to control your outside EU borders, where there is still clearly a challenge but comparably a more manageable one. Then there will always be the odd criminals that enter your country, whatever the state of your border controls, but that has always been a local police issue and should be left at that. Anyone who places a large expectation on the efficiency of border controls to solve problems are usually disappointed. Local policing is much more efficient. They are the ones that act on 'Watch Lists' and the equivalents. Border guards might have worked in the 17th century, but they are not efficient today.

[/ QUOTE ]

What planet are you on? Planet Brussels maybe!

The UK border is the channel and common sense would tell you that its easier to control a sea border than a long land border. For those without access to a small boat, entry to the UK is through limited number of points and is not a continuous line like a land border. Whats more the UK has a greater incentive to manage the border - we cant rely like the French do on a large proportion of the illegals not wanting to stay there but to move on to the UK.

The argument about the volume of traffic is simply a council of despair. maybe we need to commit more resources to the issue and maybe we need to tackle civil service work rates. Maybe also we need to accept that we spend more time vetting brown faces than white ones. maybe we stop checking exits and concentrate on entry only. But the job can be done as it would have to be done in times of war.

But whatever makes you think that the job is more manageable with the outside EU border? With countries where bribery is normal?

 

[maxi77]

[ QUOTE ]


So there you go. Apparently, before the eborders trials, if you were wanted by the police, you could still get on a flight leaving the UK, which frankly, I find astonishing.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was certainkly true that for many years the governmennt has not recorded who left the UK though they did record those who needed a visa to enter. As a result they had no idea who had overstayed their welcome. Mr Plod could check passenger lists if he asked but as far as I am aware no permanent records were kept nore was the information used to even collate statistics. Hence NuLabor having no real idea how many EU citizens had really moved here, nor how many 'tourists' had not left etc etc.

The real problem I see with e borders is that it will criminalise those who try to comply but who get it wrong, often through no fault of their own, but take aboslutely no enforcement action against those who ignore it.

 

[sailorman]

Ok then
How do the Schengen Countries police this situation then.
we stir-up a Hornets nest & reap the consequences well done king tone

 

[Seven Spades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With all respect that is just a stupid statement, what do you think the thousands of people camped in Calais would do if we joined the Schengan Agreement?

[/ QUOTE ]I think that is another non-issue and not at all relevant to this issue. The present population (14.03.2009) of the Calais refugee centre is 180. Very poor people and I wish them the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not wishing to Hi-Jack the thread. I cannot leave that response unanswered. Population growth is the biggest challenge facing this country, far worse then the current economic crisis. The population of this planet has doubled since 1980 and is forecast to exceed 9bn by 2050. The world cannot grow enough food to feed that number of people particularly with global warming. Any responsible government (are there any) would plan to make this country self sufficient in food and that means we need to have a huge reduction in population. When million of people around the world start starving they are going to walk to the more affluent nations and we are the most popular destination in Europe.

Very soon we will not be able to generate enough electricity for our existing population. Our population is set to grow by another 10 million by immigration over he next 30 years. We have neither the power, water nor housing for another 10 million people. With an open door policy the numbers would greatly exceed that.

Only one country on the planet is addressing the issue of population and that is China.

Your suggestion of an open door policy is short sighted and irresponsible.

 

[sailorman]

Fritzel is a German National didnt stop hin did it