Rules opinion would be appreciated.

[DanTribe]

Scene. Wednesday evening racing, mixture of hot shots and geriatric fun sailors (me).
Course is A -B -A -B -home. I approach A close hauled on port and will just lay B on starboard. Hot shot has rounded B and broad reaching on port back to A. We are at about 90 degrees angle. At 2 boats length from the mark I call "no water" and hot shot starts screaming for room. I give him (just) enough room, but who is right?
My understanding of RRS is out of date.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The rule says that you extend the line of your transom out. If any part of his boat is in front of that line when you enter the mark zone, then he has water. From your description, I think he did, but cannot be sure. Approaching from that angle, I cannot see how he didn’t.

 

[Laser310]

a diagram would help

 

[XDC]

Changed my mind.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Changed my mind.

Approaching another boat at 90 degrees, you may have had the overlap for the whole leg.

At a rules talk I recently attended, we were told that about 95% of mark rounding related protests are dismissed, many people don't understand this rule.

 

[awol]

So, it is likely an overlap existed and room is owed but only sufficent for the windward boat to round the mark. Without knowing it you apparently did the right thing!

 

[DFL1010]

Scene. Wednesday evening racing, mixture of hot shots and geriatric fun sailors (me).
Course is A -B -A -B -home. I approach A close hauled on port and will just lay B on starboard. Hot shot has rounded B and broad reaching on port back to A. We are at about 90 degrees angle. At 2 boats length from the mark I call "no water" and hot shot starts screaming for room. I give him (just) enough room, but who is right?
My understanding of RRS is out of date.

N.b. the zone is now three boat lengths, not two.

 

[DanTribe]

Thanks for all your replies. I probably should mug up on current rules, my last serious racing was some years ago, but we do it for fun and some of the other boats are out for blood.
For context, my boat is an old 1/2 tonner well overweight, the other boat a sports boat, different manouverability.
Do I understand that boats have to be within two boat lengths to establish an overlap, a bit close for comfort for my old girl when the sport boat was closing at right angles on a fast reach.
But it was fun!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Thanks for all your replies. I probably should mug up on current rules, my last serious racing was some years ago, but we do it for fun and some of the other boats are out for blood.
For context, my boat is an old 1/2 tonner well overweight, the other boat a sports boat, different manouverability.
Do I understand that boats have to be within two boat lengths to establish an overlap, a bit close for comfort for my old girl when the sport boat was closing at right angles on a fast reach.
But it was fun!

N.b. the zone is now three boat lengths, not two.

Like the man says….

 

[oldbloke]

Thanks for all your replies. I probably should mug up on current rules, my last serious racing was some years ago, but we do it for fun and some of the other boats are out for blood.
For context, my boat is an old 1/2 tonner well overweight, the other boat a sports boat, different manouverability.
Do I understand that boats have to be within two boat lengths to establish an overlap, a bit close for comfort for my old girl when the sport boat was closing at right angles on a fast reach.
But it was fun!

No, the overlap must exist before the 3 boat lengths. Even a sports boat sailing hot angles is not going so fast that you couldn't be aware of the possibility of an overlap developing, although, as already said from your description, the overlap had been in place for ages

 

[DanTribe]

Sorry to belabour this but I'm still a bit confused.
Recap; I'm approaching mark A close hauled on port and will just lay mark B when I tack. Another boat has rounded B and is broad reaching back to A.
I understand that I must give room when overlapped (I did), but when is that overlap established?
A/ from when he rounds B, about 1/2 mile away.
B /When I enter the zone.
C / When he gets within the prescribed distance from me ( is that 2 or 3 lengths?).
All purely academic, we discussed this over beer later.

 

[dunedin]

As suggested by others, a diagram or better description of the course would be helpful, as it seems a very odd/unusual course. And it is not clear on which side the course requires the marks to be left.
Sounds like you and the other yacht are on different legs of the course.

 

[oldbloke]

The overlap is established at any point where there is an overlap.
The right to mark room and the duty to give it occurs if the overlap is in existence when the leading boat enters a circle with a radius of 3 of his boat lengths from the mark.

 

[DanTribe]

As suggested by others, a diagram or better description of the course would be helpful, as it seems a very odd/unusual course. And it is not clear on which side the course requires the marks to be left.
Sounds like you and the other yacht are on different legs of the course.

Don't know how to do a diagram. The course was a loop at the windward end of a longer river course, all marks to port. Course was A B A B home, so effectively we were being lapped. We were to tack from port onto starboard, so turning left.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Oldbloke has a good understanding of the rule. You can have an ‘overlap’ at a mark as soon as you’re headed towards it. You only have the right to room, or the duty to provide it, when the lead boat enters the zone, 3 boat lengths of the larger of the 2 (or more) And you wouldn’t need to worry about it any further away anyway, unless you sail a fast multihull or something equally quick, where just sometimes we need to anticipate.

 

[Laser310]

Don't know how to do a diagram. The course was a loop at the windward end of a longer river course, all marks to port. Course was A B A B home, so effectively we were being lapped. We were to tack from port onto starboard, so turning left.

just draw it and take a picture

show the marks, which way they are to be rounded, and successive positions of any boats invloved

label the positions 1, 2, 3... so that each boat is shown in its position at time 1.., time 2... etc

 

[flaming]

From what I understand from your description, the key here is understanding the definition of overlap. And then how that applies to boats who are approaching a mark on widely different angles.

The definition of overlap is wrapped up in the definitions of clear astern and clear ahead. It is.

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap
One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both.These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.

What people mostly think of in terms of overlap is when boats are running downwind towards a mark, all heading in roughly the same direction. For example.

Where we see that because B is behind a line drawn at 90 degrees from the aft most point of A, then she is clear astern, but because C is not behind that line she is overlapped.

Remember, the line is drawn from the stern of each boat, not the bow. That's very important because it does not matter what angle C is sailing.

Now think of that as you look at this image. Look at where the 90 degree line from "Paul" is as he gets to the 3 boatlength circle. In anyone behind it? Answer no, they are all in front of it. So they are all owed mark room. That does not, by the way, mean that he has to wait for all of them to round. If you imagine that only the rear most boat, "Dan" exists, then it's probably that Paul could be round the mark and gone before Dan got there, but if Dan did get there at the same time, then Paul must give him room.

So thinking back to your situation. It sounds as if the other boat was on the inside, so ask yourself, when you got to the circle, were they in front of that 90 degree line from your stern? If they were, they get mark room if they need it.
Also note that mark room does NOT change who is the right of way boat. So they cannot force you down away from the mark by more than the space they need to go round the mark. You are still the right of way boat as the leeward boat, that does not change. And should you remain overlapped as you go round the mark, once you have cleared the mark you will have the right to luff them. Either up to your proper course if you established the overlap from behind, or all the way to head to wind if they came from behind or tacked/gybed into that overlapped position.
This can be rather annoying for the fast boat who is a lap ahead and wants to now reach to a finish line, where the slow boat has another lap to do and wants to go upwind.... Been there as the slow boat, done the shouting... "No mr fast 40, I don't care that your finish is over there, my mark is back upwind....."

 

[TLouth7]

The situation as I understand it, OP in pink, sportsboat in blue. I don't see how the sportsboat could not have an overlap unless the angles were quite radically different from those shown.

 

[The Q]

Oldbloke has a good understanding of the rule. You can have an ‘overlap’ at a mark as soon as you’re headed towards it. You only have the right to room, or the duty to provide it, when the lead boat enters the zone, 3 boat lengths of the larger of the 2 (or more) And you wouldn’t need to worry about it any further away anyway, unless you sail a fast multihull or something equally quick, where just sometimes we need to anticipate.

It's NOT 3 boat lengths of the larger boat, it is three boat lengths of the NEARER to the mark boat.

"Zone, The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the
boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone."

RRS
https://www.sailing.org/inside-world-sailing/rules-regulations/racing-rules-of-sailing/

 

[DanTribe]

Thank you Flaming for clear explanation of the overlap rule, it has wider implications than I thought.
tLouth7 has the diagram spot on.
I did give room but in the heat of the moment it seemed counter intuitive to give way to a windward boat bearing down fast at right angles.
Everyday a learning day.