Right of way question

john_morris_uk said:
Sorry, I still don't follow your logic. You start off by saying that you tack away early BEFORE risk of collision becomes apparent. What makes you decide to tack away? Is it just another boat in sight? How do you get anywhere? But you also say, "Amazing how many boats give way gracefully when they realise you are not going to be bullied" which I don't understand in the context of the above.

One is either the stand on vessel or the give way vessel. If there's any doubt you are the give way vessel and alter course etc. If you are stand on and the other vessel doesn't appear to be altering course in time to prevent collision then you alter course instead. Standing on need only be until you realise that they aren't doing enough to avoid collision but with small yachts you can stand on almost until hailing distance if you want to as small boats are quite agile; hence my previous comments. However there's nothing to stop you altering to leave a few boat lengths between you rather than the three coats of paint that racers try to leave between crossing boats sometimes.
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But, unless you make your actions clear & in plenty of time, will the other vessel (even if a small agile yacht), know what your doing?

Yes, they missed, but since it seems they were in open waters, not the congested scene off Cowes, was it responsible to create a near miss? It only needed the engine to stutter & who knows?
 
alant said:
But, unless you make your actions clear & in plenty of time, will the other vessel (even if a small agile yacht), know what your doing?

Yes, they missed, but since it seems they were in open waters, not the congested scene off Cowes, was it responsible to create a near miss? It only needed the engine to stutter & who knows?
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He says it wasn't a near miss but 'several boat lengths' and 'too far to see the expression on the other mans face'.

IMHO I think his expanded explanation shows he did exactly the right thing.

I also suspect that a LOT of the arguments on these forums over IRPCS arise from people feelings about what 'too close' actually means. I'll happily pass 100 metres under the stern of a supertanker but would be very uncomfortable passing even a mile ahead.
 
Seems you did the right thing, I think between small boats of a similar size a couple of boat lengths is fine for crossing ahead.

I would not have been particularly happy had the other boat tacked away, that could have been nasty had you chosen that moment to gybe yourself.
 
Irrespective of all of the above, rule 2 (and I paraphrase). Nothing in the rules absolves you of the responsibilty to take whatever action is required to avoid a collision, there is no 'right of way'

2. Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case
(b) In construing and complying with these rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger
[Rule 2 is sometimes referred to as the "General Prudential" rule and provides for non-conformance with stated rules in order to prevent a collision, because what is paramount is to avoid or minimize the damaging effects of a collision, as opposed to blindly following the rules to the letter. The overall intent is to minimize actual collision taking place rather than rule compliance in and of itself, per se.]
 
john_morris_uk said:
He says it wasn't a near miss but 'several boat lengths' and 'too far to see the expression on the other mans face'.

IMHO I think his expanded explanation shows he did exactly the right thing.

I also suspect that a LOT of the arguments on these forums over IRPCS arise from people feelings about what 'too close' actually means. I'll happily pass 100 metres under the stern of a supertanker but would be very uncomfortable passing even a mile ahead.
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As I said, if anything had happened to his engine, or the wind had dropped, whilst performing this 'I'm give way, but will stand on' maneuver, what then?
 
alant said:
As I said, if anything had happened to his engine, or the wind had dropped, whilst performing this 'I'm give way, but will stand on' maneuver, what then?
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If it happened before passing under the bow of the other ship, turn to starboard - If it happened in front of the other boat, "several boat lengths" would still have ensured the OP was safe. At 5 knots they're moving at around 2½ meters per second, so passing the average yacht would be <2 seconds.
Seems sensible to me.
/Joms
 
alant said:
As I said, if anything had happened to his engine, or the wind had dropped, whilst performing this 'I'm give way, but will stand on' maneuver, what then?
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We seem to be talking at cross purposes. My comments about standing on were directed at remarks from people who appeared to be saying they tack early to avoid getting close to anyone and apparently whether they were give way or stand on vessel under IRPCS.
 
alant said:
As I said, if anything had happened to his engine, or the wind had dropped, whilst performing this 'I'm give way, but will stand on' maneuver, what then?
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Considering he was several boat lengths ahead it is highly unlikely that engine failure or the wind dying would have dropped him straight in the path of the other boat.

What ifs are all very well but collision avoidance is pretty much achieved on a case by case basis, and in this case, he avoided a collision and so did the right thing.
 
onesea said:
All very nice in open waters you really do not sail in busy areas do you? If you did that for every boat you where not sure of in busy waters you would.
1, Never get to your destination,
2, Be a liability for other boats in the area,
.
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Ha good joker! What's your sailing background.

1/ I never 'want' to get to my destination, it would mean sailing for that trip would be over ;-)
2/ I am never a liability, i do everything on the water that is in line with good seamanship.
 
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Woodlouse said:
Considering he was several boat lengths ahead it is highly unlikely that engine failure or the wind dying would have dropped him straight in the path of the other boat.

What ifs are all very well but collision avoidance is pretty much achieved on a case by case basis, and in this case, he avoided a collision and so did the right thing.
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Really?
The OP agreed that he was in a collision situation, but still took a chance, which might have confused the stand on vessel, which even 'if' he got away with it, certainly didn't satisfy the obligations under the rules.

Was the other skipper waving 'OK', or shaking his fist in disapproval?
 
john_morris_uk said:
Sorry, I still don't follow your logic.
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Maybe I was not to clear, I was not necessarily talking about this situation when I referred to tacking…
Many times particularly with 2 boats converging on broad reaches is the hardest to avoid close quarters situation. 5 degree alteration early on can event allot of hassle later, if you do not mind taking a little longer often this is still shorter than getting into close quarter situation...
When do I decide to tack or alter? When I decide the situation is such it would be more pleasant/ easier to alter/ tack than to get into a close quarters situation. It is not definitive, other than it is before I believe the other boat has altered for me.

When I say about being a bully is that, if you want to right or wrong in the Solent 95% of boats will keep out of your way, just hold your course. Not a practice I follow but one I have observed and experienced.

I have raced in fleets exchanging paint as you put it and if I am in the humor I still not that far of the mark. If someone just is being a bully and I am in the right I might check his metal. On the occasions I have to alter as stand on vessel they will be wondering if we will exchange paint…
We are normally close enough to exchange comments about competence as well, if they wish…

As give way vessel I have found cutting it vaguely close is just not worth whilst, the stand on vessel will often take some whimsical and unpredictable action.
 
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Call me a wimp, but I tend not to push my luck re potential collisions !

If someone looks like they may not know what they're doing I make course alterations obvious and early.

Despite what people who haven't sailed there say about the Solent, I have never found a significant risk of collision there, with the exception of a certain sailing school / charter outfit !

In the case of ships I give way every time, they have enough on their plate; I once met a chap who'd singlehanded to Weymouth from Grimsby, as he described it taking cat-naps while tacking in the English Channel - " I 'ad this 250,000 tonner approaching, and he wouldn't give way ! "
 
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As the OP, I can say that I was not in a really close call collision situation. I took sightings with the hand bearing compass and thought that we going to pass in front of the downwind boat, but as we carried on, the amount of clearance looked as if it might less than comfortable. As time passed I thought that if I gybed, that could make things worse. Firstly I would be heading towards the other boat, and then what it he decided to tack to get out of my way, we would be even more on a collision course.

So I turned more upwind, which was easy to do. This put me on a beam reach which was faster. If necessary I could have turned further upwind which would have made our approach speed even less with the other yacht. I also did the change to beam reach as a definite manoeuvre so that the other boat could see I was turning away and if he wished, he could tack without worrying I was going to gybe towards him. Just to make sure I did not scare him, I did give a blast of engine in addition, but without it we still would have passed in front.

In retrospect, if I was going to gybe to go behind, I should have made the decision early.

TudorSailor
 
One top tip I was told re collision courses; stay sitting in the same place in the cockpit on the same course, and sight the oncoming vessel relative to a position on the guardrail / stanchions, if the bearing stays the same it means trouble !

Of course ( pardon the pun ) this also works if using a hand bearing compass.
 
tudorsailor said:
As the OP, I can say that I was not in a really close call collision situation. I took sightings with the hand bearing compass and thought that we going to pass in front of the downwind boat, but as we carried on, the amount of clearance looked as if it might less than comfortable. As time passed I thought that if I gybed, that could make things worse. Firstly I would be heading towards the other boat, and then what it he decided to tack to get out of my way, we would be even more on a collision course.

So I turned more upwind, which was easy to do. This put me on a beam reach which was faster. If necessary I could have turned further upwind which would have made our approach speed even less with the other yacht. I also did the change to beam reach as a definite manoeuvre so that the other boat could see I was turning away and if he wished, he could tack without worrying I was going to gybe towards him. Just to make sure I did not scare him, I did give a blast of engine in addition, but without it we still would have passed in front.

In retrospect, if I was going to gybe to go behind, I should have made the decision early.

TudorSailor
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You did everything I would have done. Probably more in fact.
 
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