Right of way question

[tudorsailor]

So recently sailing in the Adriatic - where no sure everyone knows the rules. Of course this includes me

I was sailing on starboard tack going downwind at about 120 degrees apparent. I came upon a yacht approaching from port also on a starboard tack going upwind, close hauled.

As I think that I was the windward board I assumed that I should give way but gybing was more of a business what with the preventer etc. So I carried on planning to cross just in front of the other yacht.

As it was, I turned on the engine to ensure that we motor sailed in front of the other yacht with room to spare.

It would have been much easier for the other yacht to tack away momentarily, and that is what I might have done if I had been in his shoes, but of course he was not the give way boat. As I thought that I would pass in front of the other boat on my current course, a slowly executed gybe might have actually put me onto collision course. As we passed in from he waved rather enthusiastically. However it was hard to tell a wave that was friendly from a wave that meant - what were you thinking

Should I have done something different?

This does make me glad I do not sail in the Solent where I assume this is a daily occurence

Thanks

TudorSailor

TudorSailor

 

[Woodlouse]

You missed him. All is good in the universe.

 

[epervier]

You didn't even swap paint so no worries

 

[SteveSarabande]

There is no right of way in the colregs

 

[pmagowan]

There is no right of way in the colregs

Yeah but forgetting about semantics, you made a judgement and made sure you didn't hit. A close shave with a yacht is a rather different thing than a close shave with P@O since with the former 6 foot is a mile with the later. It seems to me it matters little, you decide whether you are stand on or not and even if not you take appropriate action when required.

 

[Jamesuk]

So recently sailing in the Adriatic - where no sure everyone knows the rules. Of course this includes me

I was sailing on starboard tack going downwind (your windward boat)I came upon a yacht approaching from port also on a starboard tack going upwind, close hauled.
RULE 12 (a) (ii)

As I think that I was the windward board.... " if your unsure keep well clear"

As it was, I turned on the engine to ensure that we motor sailed in front of the other yacht with room to spare. "You just became a power driven vessel, keep clear"

It would have been much easier for the other yacht to tack away "i think the same about container ships when racing"

Should I have done something different? YES, followed the COLREGS

This does make me glad I do not sail in the Solent where I assume this is a daily occurence,
'actually it isnt, during winter we never have problems.

 

[Woodlouse]

So recently sailing in the Adriatic - where no sure everyone knows the rules. Of course this includes me

I was sailing on starboard tack going downwind (your windward boat)I came upon a yacht approaching from port also on a starboard tack going upwind, close hauled.
RULE 12 (a) (ii)

As I think that I was the windward board.... " if your unsure keep well clear"

As it was, I turned on the engine to ensure that we motor sailed in front of the other yacht with room to spare. "You just became a power driven vessel, keep clear"

It would have been much easier for the other yacht to tack away "i think the same about container ships when racing"

Should I have done something different? YES, followed the COLREGS

This does make me glad I do not sail in the Solent where I assume this is a daily occurence,
'actually it isnt, during winter we never have problems.

He did follow the colregs. He noticed that a potential collision situation was developing, he ascertained that he was the give way vessel, and he took successful measures to avoid the collision.

All in all, perfect.

 

[SeamanStaines]

You have missed a fundamental part of the colregs which apply in the Mediterranean. First, check the nationality!

1. Greek boats will take the shortest route between two places irrespective of whats in the way (especially ferries)
2. Italian boats will always choose a course to be on collision with you
3. French boats will wait until the last moment to change course
4. German boats will alter course to avoid you UNLESS its a mobo, in which case it will simply aim to miss you by a few millimeters
4. Any flagged boat with a nationality flag on the spreaders on the spreaders will be charter or flotilla, in which case assume they wont have a clue what to do.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The only part I don't understand is why one earth you think the other boat should tack away? The only reason he would (should?) tack or even alter course is if he thought you weren't taking action to avoid collision.

He can't read your mind about his difficult you think changing course mighg be and truth be told, even with a preventer on, an early alteration of course is easy for you and a pain in the backside for him as he tries to make to weather. Its why 'windward boat keeps clear' is in the rules.

However I am sounding stroppy and I don't mean to. You ended up doing right, and you can only hope that his waving wasn't annoyance at how close you got but him being enthusiastically friendly.

 

[Roberto]

during summer, if you want to keep out of trouble with other pleasure boats in that area, most often the question to ask yourself sounds like:

"should I give way or stand on to a boat with its autopilot on and no one on lookout"

 

[john_morris_uk]

during summer, if you want to keep out of trouble with other pleasure boats in that area, most often the question to ask yourself sounds like:

"should I give way or stand on to a boat with its autopilot on and no one on lookout"

But its much more fun to get so close that you can shout and wake them up!

 

[Jamesuk]

He did follow the colregs. He noticed that a potential collision situation was developing, he ascertained that he was the give way vessel, and he took successful measures to avoid the collision.

All in all, perfect.

Ok here is how I perhaps would play it:

vessel in sight, not sure about something, take in the preventer/round up in to the wind and tack then sail on a parallel course a good distance away passing him green to green. (Changing course or gybing when it is clear a collision no longer exists and pass behind him.)

Rule 8 (c) if there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a 'close-quarters' situation provided it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.

Our good forum friend had a close quarters situation that is not perfect, he crossed in front of a stand on vessel!! Do you not remember Cowes week and that yacht that also crossed in front of a stand on vessel?! Demasted!, The stand on vessel made it clear he was not most joyful of the decision our skipper friend took, that is why he is here today. I think im being fair.

Yes no collision occured, but we all want to be on the water and be treated like gentleman when we are there, no shouting please.

 

[Roberto]

But its much more fun to get so close that you can shout and wake them up!

Erm, sometimes they are well awake, but no external noise would stop them from doing what they are doing down below


Same thing happened quite a few times here in the Atlantic, quite embarassing to see naked people hurrily coming out of their boat to push the autopilot buttons +10+10+10+10...



Well, apart from that, the upper third of the adriatic is a spiderweb of (imo and not-imo) TSS, do you think anyone knows they exist, let alone where they are located ? or what they mean in terms of colregs ?


with a number of other leisure boats, it' better to imagine one is in a far west movie and the others are acting like john wayne..

cheers John

r

 

[john_morris_uk]

Erm, sometimes they are well awake, but no external noise would stop them from doing what they are doing down below


Same thing happened quite a few times here in the Atlantic, quite embarassing to see naked people hurrily coming out of their boat to push the autopilot buttons +10+10+10+10...

cheers John

r

That's because they were tying to make the human race +1 +1 +1 etc

 

[Woodlouse]

Ok here is how I perhaps would play it:

vessel in sight, not sure about something, take in the preventer/round up in to the wind and tack then sail on a parallel course a good distance away passing him green to green. (Changing course or gybing when it is clear a collision no longer exists and pass behind him.)

Rule 8 (c) if there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a 'close-quarters' situation provided it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.

Our good forum friend had a close quarters situation that is not perfect, he crossed in front of a stand on vessel!! Do you not remember Cowes week and that yacht that also crossed in front of a stand on vessel?! Demasted!, The stand on vessel made it clear he was not most joyful of the decision our skipper friend took, that is why he is here today. I think im being fair.

Yes no collision occured, but we all want to be on the water and be treated like gentleman when we are there, no shouting please.

Ok, but how close is too close? The OP mentions turning on the engine so as to cross ahead with room to spare. This doesn't sound like a near miss to me. The stand on vessel waved. That doesn't necessarily imply displeasure and generally pissed off gesticulations are hard to misinterpret.

I'm afraid your avoiding action sounds like a faf, not least because releasing the preventer and hardening up onto the wind will put him on the same heading as the boat he's trying to avoid, leaving him with no option but to either slow down and let him pass, or continue around through a tack and finally the gybe that he was trying to avoid in the first place.

Personally if I didn't think I was clear ahead then I'd bear off and sail by the lee to duck his stern. However I have in the past used my engine, as he did, just to make certain that I could pass ahead of vessels I didn't want to go around.

At the end of the day it only matters if you disobey the colregs if you have, or have caused a collision. If you avoid hitting another boat it's pretty hard to say you've done wrong.

 

[onesea]

The only part I don't understand is why one earth you think the other boat should tack away?

To be honest its the sort of thing I would do, early and clear before risk of collision becomes to apparent. Its just easier and nicer if its not going to put me to much out of my way...

In fact SWMBO hates it when I apply the letter of the rule's instead of just avoiding situations around the Solent. It's amazing how many boats gracefully give way once they realize you are not going to be bullied.

It just creates to many close calls for pleasant day sailing, that a 5 degree alteration of course or early tack keeps you well clear of.

Ok here is how I perhaps would play it:

vessel in sight, not sure about something, take in the preventer/round up in to the wind and tack then sail on a parallel course

All very nice in open waters you really do not sail in busy areas do you? If you did that for every boat you where not sure of in busy waters you would.
1, Never get to your destination,
2, Be a liability for other boats in the area,

To the OP you where give way vessel and did not hit him do not worry... Sounds like he was some one who was stand on vessel, that just had to make you giveway...

 

[bbg]

If you are the give-way boat andyou see a situation developing, you take care of it and make sure there is no collision. No problem and this is what the OP seems to have done.

What seems "too close" for some is comfortable for others. Sometimes the stand-on boat isn't keeping a proper lookout and when he sees a boat cross two lengths in front of him he gets a shock, and thinks you werent keeping a proper lookout either. So shakes his fist at you.

 

[PhillM]

I think the OP did fine because there was no contact. However, I would have removed the preventer early. With it in place he was not in a position to deal with a changing situation. He was assuming that his first course of action would work and left no fall back. Taking the preventer away would have left a gybe out of the way open, should it be needed.

 

[tudorsailor]

Thanks for all the replies.

I forgot to mention that I also changed course to be more on a beam reach. This took me away from the other yacht and increased my speed. Once I was not sure I would gybe comfortably in time since I had to release the preventer and bring in the main, this seemed safer.

I did pass many boats lengths in front of the other boat and did not think this was a near miss. I was not close enough to see the expression of the man waving!

For most of the last seven weeks I have been sailing in the Adriatic I have been extremely cautious and not assumed others will give way when they should - especially motor boats. So lots of big early turns

TS

 

[john_morris_uk]

To be honest its the sort of thing I would do, early and clear before risk of collision becomes to apparent. Its just easier and nicer if its not going to put me to much out of my way...

In fact SWMBO hates it when I apply the letter of the rule's instead of just avoiding situations around the Solent. It's amazing how many boats gracefully give way once they realize you are not going to be bullied.

It just creates to many close calls for pleasant day sailing, that a 5 degree alteration of course or early tack keeps you well clear of.

Sorry, I still don't follow your logic. You start off by saying that you tack away early BEFORE risk of collision becomes apparent. What makes you decide to tack away? Is it just another boat in sight? How do you get anywhere? But you also say, "Amazing how many boats give way gracefully when they realise you are not going to be bullied" which I don't understand in the context of the above.

One is either the stand on vessel or the give way vessel. If there's any doubt you are the give way vessel and alter course etc. If you are stand on and the other vessel doesn't appear to be altering course in time to prevent collision then you alter course instead. Standing on need only be until you realise that they aren't doing enough to avoid collision but with small yachts you can stand on almost until hailing distance if you want to as small boats are quite agile; hence my previous comments. However there's nothing to stop you altering to leave a few boat lengths between you rather than the three coats of paint that racers try to leave between crossing boats sometimes.