Removable inner stay.

[Porthandbuoy]

Sheolin had a removable inner stainless stay on which I could hank on a storm jib or heavy weather headsail (I have both). I removed it because it was difficult to stow, when not in use, and chafed against the mast or guardrails or spreaders or stanchions, depending how I secured it.
Now I'm thinking of reinstating it using Dyneema , Spectra or something similar. In use it would be tensioned by a Highfield lever. Anyone done that and was chafe a problem with piston hanks?
To stow it I was thinking of fitting a snatch block at the base of the mast, running the stay round that and up to the spinnaker pole ring. Under tension that should be quite tidy.

 

[fredrussell]

I do the same as you’re planning, except instead of a snatch block I have a 100mm aluminium pulley wheel at base of mast. Larger diameter than (most) blocks so less likely to put a kink in stay. Works well.

Edit: just re-read your post and you’re not using stainless stay, so block would be fine.

 

[BabaYaga]

I removed it because it was difficult to stow, when not in use, and chafed against the mast or guardrails or spreaders or stanchions, depending how I secured it.

Did you consider one of these?
Seldén Cutter Stay Hook Assembly @Allspars
That's part of how I stow mine. The removable stay is led to this fitting, placed rather far out on the SB spreader. The end is then taken to the chain plate for the aft lower shroud, where it is hooked to a small bottle screw, so that it can be tightened up.
I also use a piece of bungy between the removable stay and the aft lower shroud about 2 metres above deck, to take up any slack when the boat is sailing to windward.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Did you consider one of these?
Seldén Cutter Stay Hook Assembly @Allspars

I hadn't, but now that you mention it

 

[B27]

Dyneema is 'not very good' for standing rigging.

 

[mattonthesea]

Dyneema is 'not very good' for standing rigging.

Tin hat time?

 

[NormanS]

Did you consider one of these?
Seldén Cutter Stay Hook Assembly @Allspars
That's part of how I stow mine. The removable stay is led to this fitting, placed rather far out on the SB spreader. The end is then taken to the chain plate for the aft lower shroud, where it is hooked to a small bottle screw, so that it can be tightened up.
I also use a piece of bungy between the removable stay and the aft lower shroud about 2 metres above deck, to take up any slack when the boat is sailing to windward.

That's an expensive hook.

 

[dunedin]

Dyneema is 'not very good' for standing rigging.

But an inner forestay is not regular “standing rigging”, and OP said it will be tensioned before use using highfield lever - so dyneema probably is fine.

See article just yesterday - Standing Rigging - why you should change to composite rigging

 

[BabaYaga]

That's an expensive hook.

I agree. But the retail price up here is just the equivalent of 34 £. Quite reasonable for what is not a mass market item.
SELDÉN KROK FÖR KUTTERSTAG | Benns

 

[William_H]

The question of chafe of composite fore stay is interesting. That link above mentions chafe as a concern. However considering you probably won't use your inner forestay for a jib for very long it may not be a great concern worst case scenario the inner forestay lets go. At least mast will remain intact.
That link above talks about protective polyester? covering whose damge from chafe will become apparent before integrity of stay is compromised.
On a practical level a friend with 22fter has replaced all standing rigging with 4mm dyneema with no covering. Stretch was a problem until it settled down. This included the forestay on which he is running a hanked on jib. Now in fairness he has not done a lot of sailing with the hanks on the dyneema but apparently he thinks it will be OK.
Me, on my 21fteer I replaced my back stay with the 4mm dyneeema quite easily done and very successful. Next may be cap and intermediate shrouds.
So yes I think dyneema inner forestay for storm jib would be OK. Certainlty more convenient. I would use a high field lever but the stretch of the dyneema micht be a problem. ol'will

 

[zoidberg]

Marlow Ropes, and others, offer several grades of Dyneema pre-stretched line to give minimised stretch.... at a cost. Colligo Marine, half the world around, also specialise in minimal stretch 'textile' lines. It is not an insurmountable problem.

'Practical Sailor' magazine published a recent test-survey of brush-on additives to minimise chafe on lines at/around vulnerable points. Our good friend Thinwater was probably centrally involved, so a qwessie directed to him might give you an acceptable answer. One other way, which has been around for quite some years, is 'oversheathing' using a length of cover sewn and/or spliced into your line at crucial points. One can now use woven dyneema tubular sheathing designed for the job.

 

[Neeves]

One other way, which has been around for quite some years, is 'oversheathing' using a length of cover sewn and/or spliced into your line at crucial points. One can now use woven dyneema tubular sheathing designed for the job.

I did just this for snubbers, in our case a bridle. You simply milk the dyneema hollow webbing to the potential area of abrasion and sew it in place ( we used dyneema braided fishing line to sew) and for compete neatness you can whip. Milking the braided hollow tape takes patience - if you try to 'pull' the tape on it simply tightens and is impossible to move.

Its not going to improve strength - you are applying the Dyneema for its abrasion resistance.

Our webbing, sheathing, came from Nautilus Braids in NZ but I believe Lancelin in France, Home make something similar (as I am sure other European cordage makers will do the same).

We too had a stainless, inner forestay for the storm jib with Highfield lever. We too had a hook quite far out on the lower spreader and then wrapped the stay round the mast - but was never neat. Oddly we found the best solution was to leave the stay fully installed.

But as a catamaran we tried not to sail hard on the wind better to stay at anchor and extend the fishing or go for a walk, so we would seldom tack. The extra forestay gave extra support to the mast and another hand hold if it was boisterous.

Lots of yachts use unstayed headsails with the dyneema luff being the stay. Dyneema is particularly abrasion resistant and as long as the hanks are 'smooth' its difficult to see any issues, for the proposal, especially as the OP will be hoping not to try it too often in anger. The biggest danger, we found, with dyneema was in running rigging where the Dyneema core might slip inside the polyester sheath - but there are well tried mechanisms to remove the problem.

Dyneema is 'not very good' for standing rigging.

I'd like to see the evidence. I recall it being said 'dyneema is susceptible to UV' - until it was shown to be UV resistant.

Jonathan

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Dyneema is 'not very good' for standing rigging.

Obviously, you’re thinking of creep, and chafe. Neither of which apply to a removable inner stay. I wouldn’t feel ready to commit myself to dyneema permanent standing rigging for a long distance cruiser. But this seems an ideal application to me, though I’d set it up an inspect it for wear from a hanked on sail reasonably regularly. But I doubt it will suffer much. My runners are dyneema, obviously never for my forestay! But I’d consider it for my shrouds, they are not under tension when not sailing.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

For a small boat, I'd be tempted to go for a Dyneema luff rope and a Dyneema halyard, and do away with the inner forestay altogether.
You can tension the luff with the halyard, and possibly a block and tackle on the tack.
My last two boats have had removable inner forestays, and they were and are a pain in the backside. They seldom get used, and when you need them, it's likely that you have to go on the foredeck, fit the highfield tensioner, hank on the jib before you can set the sail.
I think it's much easier just to clip on the new sail, tack and halyard, thread the sheets and hoist away.

 

[BabaYaga]

For a small boat, I'd be tempted to go for a Dyneema luff rope and a Dyneema halyard, and do away with the inner forestay altogether.
You can tension the luff with the halyard, and possibly a block and tackle on the tack.
My last two boats have had removable inner forestays, and they were and are a pain in the backside. They seldom get used, and when you need them, it's likely that you have to go on the foredeck, fit the highfield tensioner, hank on the jib before you can set the sail.
I think it's much easier just to clip on the new sail, tack and halyard, thread the sheets and hoist away.

Given the conditions when a storm jib is called for, if you have a stay to hank it on to, one at a time, then you will know at least approximately where the sail will be during the time from when you take it out of the bag until the halyard is tightened up. Setting a free flying sail in such conditions would be difficult, and potentially dangerous, I image.

 

[zoidberg]

Given the conditions when a storm jib is called for, if you have a stay to hank it on to, one at a time, then you will know at least approximately where the sail will be during the time from when you take it out of the bag until the halyard is tightened up. Setting a free flying sail in such conditions would be difficult, and potentially dangerous, I image.

Those are the issues I'm exploring..... and trying to figure out a workable solution.

I'm considering A: hoisting the sail 'in stops', as we used to do with spinnakers, out of a turtle-bag clipped to the tack deck-eye fitting.... or....
B: hoisting it from a turtle-bag furled around a length of torque rope, with swivels top and bottom, and deployed like a small staysail using a furling line.

I'm not yet clear 'zackly how this might work in detail.....

Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Kelpie]

Our previous boat had a removable inner forestay. It was wire and had a normal bottlescrew for tensioning. I added a bolt through the bottlescrew body to make it a bit easier to use.
It was far from the perfect setup but I do miss it. The way we inherited the boat was with a self tacking blade jib on the furler, and no sail to go on the inner forestay. I picked up a big old genoa secondhand. So messing about with the forestay was something to do in nice weather.

I plan to fit a similar stay to the current boat to enable twin headsails.

 

[Neeves]

You will know there is bad weather coming as you will be listening to or watching the forecast. If it is unforecast you will have seen then angry clouds approaching - even if they are something of an unknown. At night you will have had the staysail hanked on and already to launch. Ideally the stay sail will be in a bag on the foredeck with all the hanks already attached. The bag will be such that it can release simply using the halyard which will operate from the cockpit. The sheets will already have been rigged at the same time the stay sail is hanked on.

The key is having a bag that will hold the hanked on staysail even with water washing the foredeck and the same bag needs to 'auto-release' with tension from the halyard and sheet. We used velcro with the halyard arranged such that it pulled through the 2 pieces of velcro before the head of the staysail was actually lifted off the deck with the same halyard. It was as Zoidberg suggests - an elongated turtle (maybe a lizard rather than a turtle ) tensioned between Highfield lever and mast.

If you cannot make your own bag - your sailmaker should have the background to know exactly what is needed. We found it was better to make your own as you were then better able to try it and make improvements - until you were comfortable it would work.

We decided against a tri-sail as attaching such when conditions demanded 'the sail of last resort' was an unacceptable risk - the cabin roof is 3m above sealevel and experience shows when a tri-sail is needed seas will break over the same roof. We have only been in 'tri-sail' conditions once, unforecast 8hrs @ 55 knots and I would not have enjoyed wrestling with the main let alone the tri-sail. We specially specified a massive 3rd reef for the main and this reef reduced sail area from 50m^2 to 12m^2 (and we used the 3rd reef a lot).

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

Did you consider one of these?
Seldén Cutter Stay Hook Assembly @Allspars
That's part of how I stow mine. The removable stay is led to this fitting, placed rather far out on the SB spreader. The end is then taken to the chain plate for the aft lower shroud, where it is hooked to a small bottle screw, so that it can be tightened up.
I also use a piece of bungy between the removable stay and the aft lower shroud about 2 metres above deck, to take up any slack when the boat is sailing to windward.

We have one but I didn’t pay anywhere near that much for it! Apologies but I also can’t remember where I got it from which doesn’t help the OP.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have had a detachable inner forestay for 20 years or more. To avoid contact and chafe along the length of the mast it clips to a U-bolt adjacent to the chain plate using a pelican hook. This means it is slightly short to reach the bow fitting, so I have a short strop that includes a bottle screw, normally stored below.