Removable inner stay.

[BabaYaga]

We have one but I didn’t pay anywhere near that much for it! Apologies but I also can’t remember where I got it from which doesn’t help the OP.

See link in post #9. Unclear to me why it would have to be so much more expensive exported to the UK.

 

[johnphilip]

A previous boat of ours, a Fulmar, came with a removable inner forestay tensioned with a highfield lever. Stowage was achieved by having the stay short enough just to reach the foot of the mast where it could be tied down. the lever was permanently attached to a wire strop which when shackled to the stay extended it so it could reach the strong point on the foredeck.
However when it was tensioned and a sail set upon it the inner stay now carried all the mast load. The forestay what with the weight of the rolled genoa and relieved of its normal tension waved around alarmingly as you hit each wave.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A previous boat of ours, a Fulmar, came with a removable inner forestay tensioned with a highfield lever. Stowage was achieved by having the stay short enough just to reach the foot of the mast where it could be tied down. the lever was permanently attached to a wire strop which when shackled to the stay extended it so it could reach the strong point on the foredeck.
However when it was tensioned and a sail set upon it the inner stay now carried all the mast load. The forestay what with the weight of the rolled genoa and relieved of its normal tension waved around alarmingly as you hit each wave.

Interesting. Our inner forestay gets tensioned with a fancy tensioner thing I picked up off eBay. Google tells me it was made by Wichard.

I wind it up reasonably tightly but there’s no way it’s going to slacken the real forestay tension to any noticeable degree. (We’ve got a masthead rig and I keep it pretty tight.)

Are you sure your forestay was tight enough in the first place?
Just wondering because adding an inner forestay really shouldn’t have the effect you’ve described. It’s not good for the rig.

 

[Neeves]

Dyneema is 'not very good' for standing rigging.

Standing Rigging: Why you should change to composite rigging

Jonathan

 

[14K478]

I remember that with hanked on headsails on wire stays the piston hanks chafed through after about 4,000 miles. The wire forestays were not affected.

 

[fredrussell]

Are you sure your forestay was tight enough in the first place?
Just wondering because adding an inner forestay really shouldn’t have the effect you’ve described. It’s not good for the rig.

I think adding tension to an inner forestay must decrease tension on the ‘forward’ forestay mustn’t it? Maybe it’s more pronounced on a fractional rig.

 

[14K478]

I have a removeable inner forestay. It is entirely possible to pull the (pretty substantial) mast out of column with it if one gets too enthusiastic with the Highfield lever. The boat has runners but they go by way of Dyneema tails to winches. The Highfield lever will always win...

Don't ask me how I know this.

 

[Supertramp]

I have had a detachable inner forestay for 20 years or more. To avoid contact and chafe along the length of the mast it clips to a U-bolt adjacent to the chain plate using a pelican hook. This means it is slightly short to reach the bow fitting, so I have a short strop that includes a bottle screw, normally stored below.

I have a similar system, with a bottlescrew and deck eye just aft of the spreaders on the sidedeck. The stow length is exactly the same as the rigged length and a Highfield lever tightens it. Don't know its there when stowed. When rigged, tacking involves rolling up the genoa.

Given I only use it in winds above 20knts, I don't want it to stretch and it needs to be tough. And I wouldn't consider free flying - its exciting enough with hanks. I am not familiar enough with dyneema to know if its stretch characteristics used as rigging truly match wire - I know is good but even so. Even with stretch at a quarter or less of rope it's still a lot more than wire. Maybe there are rigging grades?

Much will depend on your boat and how you plan to use the stay. Mine is in regular use, often left rigged. Although half the size of the genoa, the Solent jib is a heavy material sail and is a royal pain to stow in a bag on deck underway. I normally double the clew to the tack and lash it to the guard wire but would prefer a velcro bag or cover.

I understand the idea of storing it under tension up the mast rather than to the side. For me it would complicate spinnaker pole work, and I find that mast stowed lines, even tight, invariably find a resonating frequency at some wind strength, usually in the small hours. I stow everything I can away from the mast to avoid noise. Which looks messy.

 

[zoidberg]

I am not familiar enough with dyneema to know if its stretch characteristics used as rigging truly match wire

Joh Franta, the guru at Colligo Marine, insists that his DynaDux dyneema rigging - if 'correctly specified' for the specific task - will match wire rigging for stretch.
That is NOT 'same diameter'....

 

[ColinR]

I have a stainless steel detachable inner forestay with Highfield lever. The stay is the correct length so when not in use it can clip onto the forward inner shroud U bolt and be tensioned with the lever. This keeps it well away from the mast. The distance to the back of the stemhead fitting where its attached when needed is longer than to the inner, so I have a short stainless steel plate permanently shackled there that the Highfield lever attaches to when I need to use it.

 

[Kelpie]

I have a removeable inner forestay. It is entirely possible to pull the (pretty substantial) mast out of column with it if one gets too enthusiastic with the Highfield lever. The boat has runners but they go by way of Dyneema tails to winches. The Highfield lever will always win...

Don't ask me how I know this.

How far from the mast head is your inner forestay?

 

[flaming]

Sheolin had a removable inner stainless stay on which I could hank on a storm jib or heavy weather headsail (I have both). I removed it because it was difficult to stow, when not in use, and chafed against the mast or guardrails or spreaders or stanchions, depending how I secured it.
Now I'm thinking of reinstating it using Dyneema , Spectra or something similar. In use it would be tensioned by a Highfield lever. Anyone done that and was chafe a problem with piston hanks?
To stow it I was thinking of fitting a snatch block at the base of the mast, running the stay round that and up to the spinnaker pole ring. Under tension that should be quite tidy.

The bang up to date approach to this is to use a storm jib set on a furler with a dynema luff line. This is then hoisted furled and tensioned with a halyard before being unfurled to deploy.

 

[14K478]

How far from the mast head is your inner forestay?

Here:
I'd say that's 2/3 up as its where the upper spreaders are,

 

[zoidberg]

The bang up to date approach to this is to use a storm jib set on a furler with a dynema luff line. This is then hoisted furled and tensioned with a halyard before being unfurled to deploy.

That's 'zackly what I'm looking to do.

Do you have any guidance on a suitable but very small diameter furler..... and top swivel thingy?

 

[14K478]

As one who has done a fair bit of sea time on English type gaff cutters with jibs set flying from a bowsprit traveller, often with Wykeham Martin’s gear, you will need to have your storm jib cut to accommodate the luff sag if you do this.

Nothing new about it; it was common 100 years ago. But most sailmakers will cut the jib wrongly and you will never lie close to the wind let alone sail to windward with a bag of guts as a storm headsail.

 

[Neeves]

As one who has done a fair bit of sea time on English type gaff cutters with jibs set flying from a bowsprit traveller, often with Wykeham Martin’s gear, you will need to have your storm jib cut to accommodate the luff sag if you do this.

Nothing new about it; it was common 100 years ago. But most sailmakers will cut the job wrongly and you will never lie close to the wind let alone sail to windward with a bag of guts as a storm headsail.

Most head sails to attach to an inner forestay are cut flat for arduous conditions, they are storm jibs. You really need a storm jib and completely separately another sail cut offering the ability to sail to windward.

This thread is interesting in that the replies centre round a stainless or a dyneema stay (maybe with a dyneema luff). Fears are expressed over Dyneema's creep characteristics.

We seem stuck in a mindset that the only cordage to consider is Dyneema. We seem conditioned to only consider Dyneema. There is cordage other than dyneema, maybe expensive, but the stay is not going to be very long and may only be used for short periods, hours not months, and creep is then not an issue

Dyneema does suffer from creep but even with standing rigging there are solutions, that are used (and Highfield levers are adjustable). The OP's ideas might have been to have a 'movable' stay, or not, so creep may or may not be an issue - we should offer him the choice so that he can make his decision (not a decision focussed solely at stainless and dyneema).

I do like the idea of holding the sail on a furler I wonder if there is a small and strong enough furler for the OPs application. I know there are small furlers - they are commonly for 'small' yachts under 'benign' conditions - not the sort of conditions that the OP seems to envisage.

I confess my knowledge of cordage (and furlers) is limited - but I do know they exist.

Jonathan

 

[B27]

A while back, I had a dinghy with a raking rig, cascade systems to adjust the shrouds,
Absolutely annoying trying to keep the two sides the same with dyneema.
Vectran was a great improvement.

I don't think I want to be on the foredeck in storm jib conditions, adjusting the Highfield lever to compensate for creep.
Neither would I want a jib set on a slack stay, lashing about every time you hit a wave.

Post 32 looks like something that's typically put up in a flat calm at the start of the Fastnet to show the race committee you've boxed all the ticks.

 

[flaming]

A while back, I had a dinghy with a raking rig, cascade systems to adjust the shrouds,
Absolutely annoying trying to keep the two sides the same with dyneema.
Vectran was a great improvement.

I don't think I want to be on the foredeck in storm jib conditions, adjusting the Highfield lever to compensate for creep.
Neither would I want a jib set on a slack stay, lashing about every time you hit a wave.

Post 32 looks like something that's typically put up in a flat calm at the start of the Fastnet to show the race committee you've boxed all the ticks.

Not at all. That’s a genuine offshore rig. It’s becoming quite a common thing to do. Allows the sail to be tacked aft of the forestay, and also double up as a Genoa staysail.
The dehler 30, a purpose built OD shorthanded offshore boat has its J4 sized jib on a furler like this as well. As do, for example, the IMOCAs…

 

[B27]

I guess the aft-swept spreaders mean the intermediate shrouds give the mast a lot of support against the stay tension, compared to putting such a stay on an old-style rig as an afterthought.

 

[zoidberg]

We need to differentiate clearly between 'stretch' and 'creep'. See Marlow tech et al....