Reefing issues....

[ridgy]

I'm intrigued...your wife accepts the general misery of sailing and yet is enraged by this occasional and brief moment of flapping.
Hoisting the main, dropping the main, and tacking all involve more flapping than reefing and more frequent..?
What is her role when reefing?

 

[Daydream believer]

Reef a little bit more off the wind so the boom is over the sea, not the cockpit.

It is nothing to with reefing. When reefing the lines are automatically pulled in so do not flap down. The issue is when the sail is dropped & the reef lines, which are up the leech, now become slack & drop below the boom thus causing loops. The OPs good lady is right to complain, as it can be dangerous. It can be awkward for the person at the mast who has to pull these lines in at the gooseneck whilst reaching in amongst the bunched up sailcloth. The dropped sail will sit over the exit point on the boom & one has to lift the heavy cloth up to get access & pull the lines in whilst holding on with one hand as the boat rolls- which it may welll do as there are no sails to steady it whilst now under engine power.
The alternative is to go to the outboard end & deal with it from there- Not so easy in practice, as I have found over the last 20 years.

 

[Daydream believer]

I understand some people do have significant phobias of stuff hanging down around their necks, hence not surprised. Maybe a solution is to swap roles.

So how does that solve the problem of the swinging loops & does one really expect one's other half to be on deck taming a sail, as it is dropped?

 

[RupertW]

So how does that solve the problem of the swinging loops & does one really expect one's other half to be on deck taming a sail, as it is dropped?

The swinging loops is simply not a problem that needs solving - and that to me is the crunch of the matter. Complete reefing then take in the slack on the loops. This is surely about negotiating and persuading not a sailing problem.

 

[B27]

It is nothing to with reefing. When reefing the lines are automatically pulled in so do not flap down. The issue is when the sail is dropped & the reef lines, which are up the leech, now become slack & drop below the boom thus causing loops. The OPs good lady is right to complain, as it can be dangerous. It can be awkward for the person at the mast who has to pull these lines in at the gooseneck whilst reaching in amongst the bunched up sailcloth. The dropped sail will sit over the exit point on the boom & one has to lift the heavy cloth up to get access & pull the lines in whilst holding on with one hand as the boat rolls- which it may welll do as there are no sails to steady it whilst now under engine power.
The alternative is to go to the outboard end & deal with it from there- Not so easy in practice, as I have found over the last 20 years.

Well, this thread is titled 'reefing issues', so it is to do with reefing.
What we do is:
Firstly we don't sail around in light airs with 3 reefs rigged so there is less of an issue.
Secondly when we drop the main, particularly in rolly conditions, we promptly take the boom under control, tying it over to port, then taking the slack out of the sheet.

Our stack pack tends to do a fair job of catching the reef lines, but on other people's racier boats with no stack pack, we normally just pull in any slack reef line that's hanging around.
You need to take a little more care with a boat with no topping lift, as the boom will come down some on the kicker strut. That could allow a line to catch on a halyard winch, or the navigator's head as he chooses the wrong moment to emerge from the hatch.
Obviously when hoisting the main, you need to check any reef lines are running free so as not to impede hoisting.

A downhaul to pull the luff slides down from the cockpit might work for some people, it might enable getting the main under control before leaving the cockpit, so you only need to venture forward of the sprayhood at your leisure, to 'tidy up'.

I've sailed with a fair range of people on a selection of boats, I have found there are many 'right ways' of doing things. If a process like 'reefing' or 'dropping the main' is causing issues, talk about what other people do, break the process down into 'breathe in, pull red string, breathe out release blue string etc....' maybe consider inserting 'pause, check lines are tidy, sort' at a key point.
In racing,we are looking for quicker evolutions which keep the boat moving faster. In cruising we just want reasonably quick but totally sure and safe.
It doesn't cost much time to pause dropping the main half way down and take in some lines, if that's what works.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

So how does that solve the problem of the swinging loops & does one really expect one's other half to be on deck taming a sail, as it is dropped?

Remove the person from the area and yes, the other half can be trained to do the job, assuming no other physical or mental restrictions. I work with my partner to make sailing safe and enjoyable, I don't see any issue with it.

The swinging loops is simply not a problem that needs solving - and that to me is the crunch of the matter. Complete reefing then take in the slack on the loops. This is surely about negotiating and persuading not a sailing problem.

No normal person is worried about ropes in the slab reefing situation. The OP has stated pretty clearly, how bad it is for the person in the cockpit. So far the OP doesn't have a solution that is agreeable to them. Swapping roles is an easy solution.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

Well, this thread is titled 'reefing issues', so it is to do with reefing.

Yes, mea culpa, the first part was more about spectacle alternatives which is more reefing, and the second about dropping the main. Obvs. if you're reefing you only drop the sail enough to get the reef in, so there's less dangling. It's more when dropping the sail, that the reef lines get in the way.

If you do that, the leech will only be pulled down, so there will effectively be no outhaul tension when reefed.

No, the block would be on a strop around the boom so would move back as well, or be positioned slightly aft.
I don't think the purchase is a significant issue, the gain of the 2:1 is lost by the relatively high friction of the cringle and the force recovered by a winch anyway.

 

[RupertW]

Remove the person from the area and yes, the other half can be trained to do the job, assuming no other physical or mental restrictions. I work with my partner to make sailing safe and enjoyable, I don't see any issue with it.



No normal person is worried about ropes in the slab reefing situation. The OP has stated pretty clearly, how bad it is for the person in the cockpit. So far the OP doesn't have a solution that is agreeable to them. Swapping roles is an easy solution.

The kind of person who dislikes ropes falling may not be the kind of person happy to leave the cockpit. My wife probably hasn’t left the cockpit apart from when settled at anchor or marina for 20 years.

 

[B27]

Just find a way that works for you on your boat.

If someone tells you about their way of doing things, you don't have to think 'that is the right way' and copy them, but maybe there is some part of another persons way of doing things that might adapt and improve your way of doing things.

I've found it's helped me to be open minded, I sail with many different people who all think 'their way is right'.
I've now got my own smaller boat with a sprayhood which means my old way of doing things was not optimum.
So I borrow a little of Pete's way of doing things and Chris's habit and try to avoid the SNAFU.

If someone has an issue with loose lines on their boat that's a problem for them.
If someone else has no such problem, because the lines maybe fall harmlessly on the sprayhood without catching the solar panel and ripping it off, it's not helpful to say the first person doesn't have a problem.
It's more helpful to suggest potential solutions

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

20 years of in mast furling...

I'm not sure that is a viable solution at this stage...

I'm intrigued...your wife accepts the general misery of sailing and yet is enraged by this occasional and brief moment of flapping.
Hoisting the main, dropping the main, and tacking all involve more flapping than reefing and more frequent..?
What is her role when reefing?

It's things flapping around that she dislikes, and there is an issue with it, the boat does tend to dump a lot of line in the cockpit when you drop the main. In a bit of wind it can whip around a bit, and there's a trip hazard.

When hoisting the flapping is well above, and if you've pulled in the reefing lines then they don't flap in the hoist, but they do add friction. Tacking's not very flappy if you do it right and it's all at the front anyway.

As for reefing I generally do anything at the mast and similarly it's less of an issue when she's dropping the main as it doesn't land on her in that position. She's no newbie, we've both done many thousands of miles.

 

[Pye_End]

Yes, mea culpa, the first part was more about spectacle alternatives which is more reefing, and the second about dropping the main. Obvs. if you're reefing you only drop the sail enough to get the reef in, so there's less dangling. It's more when dropping the sail, that the reef lines get in the way.

The one in the cockpit needs to flick the reefing lines round the boom as the sail is dropped.

 

[Tranona]

I'm not sure that is a viable solution at this stage...

Appreciate that - it was tongue in cheek.

However having come back to slab reefing after 20 years of in mast, I realise how rubbish in terms of "user friendly" the system is for what I see for cruising boats no real gain. I am always intrigued by the regular suggestions of magic tricks to overcome the failings (spectacles, welded on clips, bits of bungy, tucking bits of errant rope in as you go, hanging the boom over the side etc.

Maybe why those who have in mast (or in boom) rarely change through choice.

 

[Daydream believer]

Appreciate that - it was tongue in cheek.

However having come back to slab reefing after 20 years of in mast, I realise how rubbish in terms of "user friendly" the system is for what I see for cruising boats no real gain. I am always intrigued by the regular suggestions of magic tricks to overcome the failings (spectacles, welded on clips, bits of bungy, tucking bits of errant rope in as you go, hanging the boom over the side etc.

Maybe why those who have in mast (or in boom) rarely change through choice.

I do not consider my single line reefing "rubbish". I cruise SH & find it a boon. True it has short comings with the lines hanging from the boom end when dropping the main. But that does not apply if it is much above 16kts & I have one reef in, or 22 kts if the second is in.
I consider my set up reasonably friction free. Certainly no problem with a Harken 2 speed winch to finish the job off. I spent some time paying attention to friction points & how the system works .
As for cruising V racing, I still want my boat to sail efficiently, so just because I am cruising does not mean that I would let things go lax. That is except when endlessly seasick. I have it worked out what to do on the onset of seasickness, having suffered for 50 years.
What is more I would not want a triangular sack for a mainsail. Having seen many, one cannot deny that is the norm with in mast systems. I have also see boats coming into port with jammed sails. . Not all little ones either. One 50 ft Grande Soliel in Lowestoft made me cringe, when the owner sent a crew aloft with a knife to cut the sail from top to bottom to remove it.

 

[MontyMariner]

Admittedly, in my tiny 10m boat

When did 10m become tiny?

 

[Daydream believer]

When did 10m become tiny?

When somebody decided that starter boats should be at least 35-36 ft

 

[Tranona]

I do not consider my single line reefing "rubbish". I cruise SH & find it a boon. True it has short comings with the lines hanging from the boom end when dropping the main. But that does not apply if it is much above 16kts & I have one reef in, or 22 kts if the second is in.
I consider my set up reasonably friction free. Certainly no problem with a Harken 2 speed winch to finish the job off. I spent some time paying attention to friction points & how the system works .
As for cruising V racing, I still want my boat to sail efficiently, so just because I am cruising does not mean that I would let things go lax. That is except when endlessly seasick. I have it worked out what to do on the onset of seasickness, having suffered for 50 years.
What is more I would not want a triangular sack for a mainsail. Having seen many, one cannot deny that is the norm with in mast systems. I have also see boats coming into port with jammed sails. . Not all little ones either. One 50 ft Grande Soliel in Lowestoft made me cringe, when the owner sent a crew aloft with a knife to cut the sail from top to bottom to remove it.

As ever you miss the point and try to answer a very different question.

The point I was making is that for the average cruising boat there is little advantage in terms of overall performance of the boat in having a purpose designed furling mains. Of course you see many with poor sails - just as you see many non furling rigs with poor sails. You tend to see your approach to sailing, particularly the complexity of the rig and the regular changing of sails as the norm, when it is the exception for cruising boats. Equally there is no reason why you should have poor sails on a furling rig as I have explained to you many times. The loss of performance in typical cruising mode is nowhere as much as you imagine - but then you would not know because you have never owned a boat with such a rig.

If furling sails had been "invented" first then I doubt anybody would bother with the crude restrictive slab reefing systems that still have a share of the market. May well have been encouraged for racing, just as non furling headsails still have a place.

It is the second paragraph of my post that is relevant to this thread - the things people do to to overcome the deficiencies of the system to make it usable.

 

[Hermit]

As a possible solution for the OP, what about scandalising the main before lowering/reefing? i.e. Raise the boom using the topping lift to keep the majority of the lines out of (above) the cockpit.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

As a possible solution for the OP, what about scandalising the main before lowering/reefing? i.e. Raise the boom using the topping lift to keep the majority of the lines out of (above) the cockpit.

Yeah, I've got both a vang and a topping lift. These don't get on well generally but the boom is big and the topping lift helps to strap it down when not sailing. The vang does however eliminate significantly raising the boom. I'm also considering removing that as its fittings have become a bit worn.

I don't think that would cut it though, it's a big boom rig so it goes a long way aft.

I have rigged a block to see what happens..

 

[Tranona]

Yeah, I've got both a vang and a topping lift. These don't get on well generally but the boom is big and the topping lift helps to strap it down when not sailing. The vang does however eliminate significantly raising the boom. I'm also considering removing that as its fittings have become a bit worn.

I don't think that would cut it though, it's a big boom rig so it goes a long way aft.

I have rigged a block to see what happens..

This all sounds very familiar. I am in the process of making sail handling easier on my Golden Hind with its (relatively) huge low aspect ratio mainsail and single line reefing from the cockpit. This is so that I can do it all single handed from the cockpit with confidence. The loads of string dangling is just one of the problems. This year has been one of giving it a try before making drastic changes and fitting the hardware to take the lines back. The one major change so far is to fit a Tides Marine sail track so that the main is easy to lower and raise. The stack pack and lazy jacks were made so that all the unused sail and string when reefed would be collected easily on the boom. Because the reefing lines run below the stack pack I have put a fairlead about halfway along the boom, but quickly found that is not enough and will now add 2 more to minimise the droop. So far I have not reefed for real, only when moored up and clear that I need low friction leads back to the cockpit. This winter's job (one of many!). Couple of photos to give an idea of the boat and rig.

I have never liked slab reefing - I added it to my earlier smaller version of this design over 30 years ago to replace the roller boom, but have always felt like it is making the best out of what is essentially a bad system. Not just the miles of string and friction involved but essentially limiting available sail area to only 3 pre-determined levels - and all the unused sail needing to be put away on the boom. Given that people make so much of the importance of the lower part of the sail it seem bizarre that when you need efficiency that all gets lost in a bundle of redundant sail. Hence my enthusiasm for in mast furling which I have had for the last 20 years. Infinitely variable sail area, easy reduction and surplus unused sail neatly stowed in the mast leaving the working bit to work efficiently The arguments about loss of sail area and shape really don't wash with boats designed for the rig and sails made specifically for the characteristics.

Anyway one is stuck with what one has, although when I add up all the cost of making this lot work I almost wish I had junked the mast and boom and started with a new Selden in mast. Now I console myself to treating it as a challenge in my old age!

 

[TLouth7]

I think the simplest thing to try first would be a length of bungee from the reefing line just in front of where it passes through the leach cringle to a point forward on the boom. This should hopefully pull the reefing line forward as the sail is lowered, and not add too much friction during the hoist. You would need to play around with tension to get it just right.