Recreational Craft Directive

[MINESAPINT2]

There should be other paperwork associated with the certificate which you should ask to see that verifies that the boat has been assessed as RCD compliant, also the boat must have the CE mark applied to it with the identification number. The main document is the technical file for the boat which will have been presented to the body that issues the certificate once they are satisfied that it is compliant. I would ask the builder for the technical file and who reviewed it for RCD compliance.

Correction: The CE plate does not have to be added to self build boats, my mistake.

You may also wish to engage a broker who could check all is in order for you and who has experience in this area, quite a few home built boats pass through this process so it's not a mystery to brokers and they know how to manage the paperwork trail.



http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx

Also read http://www.marinesurveysltd.co.uk/recreational_craft_directive_guide.htm

Thanks for advice, I am the OP.

I visited the link in this post RYA RCD and it does make clear any home built vessel placed on UK market within 5 years of completion is a vessel that must be RCD compliant. Just to reiterate I am sure the boat to which I refer is home built and was sold within 5 years of completion.

There are many things that are unclear to me but the reason for my original post was to try to determine if the RCD certificate I have been allowed to see for the boat is genuine. It would seem the boat was the subject of a post completion assessment with a certificate issued a couple of years after completion. I feel there should be details written on the certificate of which I am unaware but many of you will be, which I could check and would help me with my determinations.

I must add if I get very close to putting an offer in for this boat I will have engaged the services of an expert but usually there is excellent advice available freely on such a forum as this.

If anyone happens to have a blank RCD certificate perhaps you would be so kind as to copy it into this thread for discussion.

Thanks

MINESAPINT2

 

[JumbleDuck]

Nothing to do with insurance. Insurers are not in the least bit interested.

The concern is about the legality of the sale of a home built boat. It is an offence for the seller to sell a home built boat within 5 years of launch without having a Certificate of Conformity for the complete boat.

Yes, sure, but does anybody actually care?

It's illegal to do 75mph on motorways and the authorities don't care about that. It's illegal not to have a list of distress signals on your boat, but has anyone ever had that checked?

There is a terrifying/scaremongering notion about that trading standards officer lurk around the marinas and harbours of the UK, ready to pounce on boats which do not have the relevant RCD paperwork (or which in most cases, did not have it one one particular day in the past). This notion, however, seems to be unsupported by actual evidence. How many private owners or sellers of boats have been prosecuted for RCD issues?

Trading Standards departments are grossly overworked with things that really matter.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And all this EU inspired nonsense has saved how many lives ? ... Glad we will soon be out, although the macro industry built up around this will no doubt fight hard against having such nonsense cancelled.

There is a huge amountto be said for the RCD. It allows builders to compete in th emarket across the EU without having to meet a host of different and sometime contradictory regulations. Even if we do leave the EU, I would expect such UK boatbuilders as there are to continue build boats to RCD standards.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I visited the link in this post RYA RCD and it does make clear any home built vessel placed on UK market within 5 years of completion is a vessel that must be RCD compliant.

Is it not pretty easy to get RCD Category D, which I understand means "It floats, probably"?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... If anyone happens to have a blank RCD certificate perhaps you would be so kind as to copy it into this thread for discussion. .....

Ta da!

http://development.eucertification.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/img-110105184857-0001.jpg

If you search Google using the phrase 'image of an RCD Certificate' in amongst all the electrical breaker stuff you will find quite a few certificates, mostly for Chinese manufactured boats. Perhaps if you investigate further you will find certificates for larger boats from EU manufacturers. I am not sure if there is a standard for the certificate but having been involved with EU standards for another industry, they all more or less have the same format and similar text i.e. describing the thing thing and stating what standards it complies with.

 

[Tranona]

So a pre 1997 (i think it was) bathtub built in the EU is OK, but one built in the US isn't. I simply do not understand why the RCD was made retrospective, unless of course to act as a trading impediment.

It wa not retrospective. It just applied to all imports after the implementation date. Again perfectly normal practice in international trade. All states are perfectly entitled to impose any restrictions they like on imports and this restriction was to ensure that all imports were on the same basis as domestic products in the market place.

Nothing to do with "nanny state", as if you had a US boat in the EU at the time you could still use it legally. It is all about international trade rules, not a sinister plot!

 

[Max Campbell]

Is it not pretty easy to get RCD Category D, which I understand means "It floats, probably"?

It would take days & days of drafting documents and signing them off as compliant. Maybe almost any boat would qualify, but the paperwork and organisation is a huge job.

 

[Max Campbell]

I feel there should be details written on the certificate of which I am unaware but many of you will be, which I could check and would help me with my determinations.



MINESAPINT2

I think the British Marine Federation http://britishmarine.co.uk should at least be able to show you what the bit of paper should look like.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, sure, but does anybody actually care?

At this point in time with the boat in question, perhaps nobody. however the prospective purchaser obviously does because he has been offered sight of paperwork and he has questions about whether it is genuine or not - even though there is no requirement that he has to posses the paperwork.

At the time the original builder sold the boat (as you will understand if you read my whole post instead of selecting a small part of it) he should care as he would be committing a criminal offence if he sold the boat without the correct paperwork. Equally the buyer would run the risk of having the boat impounded. This is nothing like exceeding the speed limit in scale. There may be tens of thousands of pounds involved in the transaction so any normal person, unless he was very stupid or had no respect for the law at all would comply - as this home builder seems to have done. It is irrelevant what the chances are of being found out - it is an absolute offence - and the offence does not become less as time goes by. It will always be there.

As you have never been in a position where this law affects you, how can you possibly say what you would do? Clearly most people who currently are required to comply, do so and I expect as a law abiding person you would comply.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for advice, I am the OP.

I visited the link in this post RYA RCD and it does make clear any home built vessel placed on UK market within 5 years of completion is a vessel that must be RCD compliant. Just to reiterate I am sure the boat to which I refer is home built and was sold within 5 years of completion.

There are many things that are unclear to me but the reason for my original post was to try to determine if the RCD certificate I have been allowed to see for the boat is genuine. It would seem the boat was the subject of a post completion assessment with a certificate issued a couple of years after completion. I feel there should be details written on the certificate of which I am unaware but many of you will be, which I could check and would help me with my determinations.

I must add if I get very close to putting an offer in for this boat I will have engaged the services of an expert but usually there is excellent advice available freely on such a forum as this.

If anyone happens to have a blank RCD certificate perhaps you would be so kind as to copy it into this thread for discussion.

Thanks

MINESAPINT2

If it is a post completion assessment the certificate would have the name of the firm that carried out the assessment which is likely in the UK to be CE Proof or possibly the RYA. Very easy to then check with the issuer as to whether it is genuine. The certificate will be different from those issued by serial builders who essentially self certify and just list the standards they use for design and QA.

Supporting documentation inter alia includes stability calculations, standards used in design, lamination schedules for GRP, list of equipment, Certificate of compliance for engine(s), owners handbook and makers handbook for all equipment on board. I believe there is still a full list on the RYA site. The stability and some construction maybe in a separate certificate if the main structure was sold by a builder, but could be in the post completion certificate, either sourced from the designer/builder or calculated by the eventual certifier.

Although there is no legal requirement for this paperwork to stay with the boat - it is only required at the point of first sale, it is sensible of you to have sight (and eventual possession) as it is valuable evidence that the original construction was sound and complied with the recognised standards.

So take up the seller's offer of sight of the document - no reason why he should refuse as lack of it devalues the boat, and check with the issuer.

 

[superheat6k]

It wa not retrospective. It just applied to all imports after the implementation date. Again perfectly normal practice in international trade. All states are perfectly entitled to impose any restrictions they like on imports and this restriction was to ensure that all imports were on the same basis as domestic products in the market place.

Nothing to do with "nanny state", as if you had a US boat in the EU at the time you could still use it legally. It is all about international trade rules, not a sinister plot!

A trade restriction means paying an import duty plus vat, not having a bunch of bigwigs imposing unnecessary opinions, and restrictions for restrictions sake.

I appreciate you are giving me the official line. I'm giving you my official opinion on the subject. You don't have to like or agree it, but it remains my opinion..

Thank god were leaving.

 

[Tranona]

A trade restriction means paying an import duty plus vat, not having a bunch of bigwigs imposing unnecessary opinions, and restrictions for restrictions sake.

I appreciate you are giving me the official line. I'm giving you my official opinion on the subject. You don't have to like or agree it, but it remains my opinion..

Thank god were leaving.

It has been the "official" position now for 20 years, and as I keep saying is a rule that covers imports. Rules for imports do not just cover VAT and duty. ALL states have rules that cover other things - some that totally ban certain imports, but mainly rules that cover technical aspects of manufactured goods which is what the CE mark is. EVERY product that comes into the EU for normal use has to be CE marked. There are some very specific exemptions, but not many for consumer goods. There is no logical reason why boats from the US should be exempt just so that you can have a cheaper boat. Just to make the point, all imports from the US irrespective of age need to comply.

Leaving the EU will not make the slightest difference. Exit does not mean abandoning everything EU, as you will know if you read the papers. The repeal act will pass everything EU into UK law and then it will be unpicked piece by piece. As the UK was a prime mover in the RCD it is unlikely it will be withdrawn, and equally unlikely that any trade deal with the US will make any difference. Allowing free trade in secondhand boats will not be high on the list of objectives in any negotiation - on either side!

 

[JumbleDuck]

At this point in time with the boat in question, perhaps nobody. however the prospective purchaser obviously does because he has been offered sight of paperwork and he has questions about whether it is genuine or not - even though there is no requirement that he has to posses the paperwork.

At the time the original builder sold the boat (as you will understand if you read my whole post instead of selecting a small part of it) he should care as he would be committing a criminal offence if he sold the boat without the correct paperwork.

I read your whole post. As you point out, this is not a question about the original builder, it's about the obligations, if any, on a subsequent purchaser.

As you have never been in a position where this law affects you, how can you possibly say what you would do?

That's a complete non-sequitur. It's only people who haven't been in a particular position who can say what they would do; those who have been in that position can say what they did.

There is far too much silly scaremongering about the RCD, It is of no practical relevance at all to private sellers and buyers of second hand boats.

 

[Tranona]

I read your whole post. As you point out, this is not a question about the original builder, it's about the obligations, if any, on a subsequent purchaser.



That's a complete non-sequitur. It's only people who haven't been in a particular position who can say what they would do; those who have been in that position can say what they did.

There is far too much silly scaremongering about the RCD, It is of no practical relevance at all to private sellers and buyers of second hand boats.

i know your opinion on that - however as this thread shows proper buyers committing their own money ARE concerned.

Just because you have an opinion about about it being scaremongering - that is because you have never been in a position where it might be important, so your opinion counts for nothing. Only people such as the OP can judge the importance.

So, best for anybody considering buying a boat with a history that suggests a possible offence has been committed in relation to the boat to be aware of the law, do their research on the history and make their own judgement as their course of action. If the boat is being sold through a broker, that is exactly what the broker will do as he has an obligation to do due diligence and advise the buyer accordingly.

To say you, who have no experience, would know what they would do is just nonsense. What you are saying is that you would knowingly break the law, aware of the consequences, or buy a boat that has been involved in an illegal transaction.

Would you really?

 

[JumbleDuck]

i know your opinion on that - however as this thread shows proper buyers committing their own money ARE concerned.

Just because you have an opinion about about it being scaremongering - that is because you have never been in a position where it might be important, so your opinion counts for nothing. Only people such as the OP can judge the importance.

The OP is of course the best person to judge the importance to him, but to do so he needs accurate information, not hysterical doom-mongering. We see exactly the same nonsense sputed about imported boats. Even if Trading Standards care, which they don't, the obligations are with the importer, not the subsequent purchaser.

To say you, who have no experience, would know what they would do is just nonsense. What you are saying is that you would knowingly break the law, aware of the consequences, or buy a boat that has been involved in an illegal transaction. Would you really?

I might well do so, if I knew - as appears to be the case - that as far as private buyers and sellers of secondhand boats are concerned, the law is completely unenforced.

As a matter of interest, exactly how many second boats with uncertain RCD status have you considered buying, or bought, of late? Buying a new mass produced boat through a dealer is of no relevance at all, of course, so it would be useful to know on what recent personal experience your advice is based. I presume you are not just giving hypothetical advice based on what you think you would do in the OP's position.

OP, my boat was built just before the RCD came into force, and is identical in all respects to the ones built afterwards. There is therefore no way of knowing, on inspection, whether on not she should have been RCD compliant when built. Would you care to guess how many times, over the six years I have owned her, I have been approached by Trading Standards officers and asked to prove that she was either compliant or exempt when first supplied?

Hint: it's precisely the same as the number of times I have been asked by HMRC to prove that she has not lost her VAT-paid status by spending a year outside the EU.

 

[superheat6k]

... Leaving the EU will not make the slightest difference. Exit does not mean abandoning everything EU, as you will know if you read the papers. The repeal act will pass everything EU into UK law and then it will be unpicked piece by piece. As the UK was a prime mover in the RCD it is unlikely it will be withdrawn, and equally unlikely that any trade deal with the US will make any difference. Allowing free trade in secondhand boats will not be high on the list of objectives in any negotiation - on either side!

Why do you mention newspapers and leaving the EU ? We do not yet know what leaving EU means, especially the newspapers, who spread utter tosh about that subject on a daily basis. Although I do agree that any matters to with recreational boats will be way low down the list of priorities.

I was never expecting a free trade, and had I ever bought a US boat I would have expected to pay both VAT and Duty on its import. Indeed as I did pay VAT on the boat I did buy from Jersey, where duty was zero rated. The clear difficulty I foresaw with the requirement to have a pre RCD boat assessed for RCD was that the cost was completely undefinable, making any sort of purchase untenable.

I also abhor any form of bureaucratic officialdom nosing its way into the marine leisure world, and this is the principal reason I am a member of the RYA who actively fight a war of attrition against such nonsense. For instance I wear a life jacket out of personal choice and when I deem it necessary, but I don't need a lawto tell me I must wear one. Thank god us sea navigators do not (yet) have to suffer the nonsense that is the BSS afflicting inland waterways users, where a macro industry of bigwigs exists to tell you you can't have a clear sight glass on a water separator fuel filter.

 

[MINESAPINT2]

Thanks all (particularly tranona),

I am the OP.

The thread did seem to get a bit sidetracked but I have tried to sort out the bits most relevant to my original question. My fear was that I might have been sent some forged documents. No reason for this, just my cautious nature. I now believe this is not the case but have winged an email off to the company on the POST CONSTRUCTION CONFORMITY REPORT for their verification that it is genuine. What I have concluded if I have understood correctly. If a home built boat is sold within 5 years WITHOUT the proper RCD/Post Construction Conformity Report etc the vendor has committed an offence and the boat could be impounded at any later date?. This is also true of a professionally built boat sold without the proper RCD etc?

Mike

 

[JumbleDuck]

What I have concluded if I have understood correctly. If a home built boat is sold within 5 years WITHOUT the proper RCD/Post Construction Conformity Report etc the vendor has committed an offence and the boat could be impounded at any later date?

The first bit is true (as long as the vendor is the builder - dunno if it's a subsequent owner); it would be interesting to have confirmation one way or the other about the second one.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

....it would be interesting to have confirmation one way or the other about the second one.

When CE marking first started I was involved in moving goods from the USA to offshore UK continental shelf via Aberdeen (for drilling operations). All equipment was not CE marked and also no duty paid as it was going straight offshore. Later at end of life the equipment had to be sent back to America for two reasons: it was not CE marked and could therefore not be sold in the EU market and for junk equipment, we would be importing scrap and thus had to pay duty on scrap value. The CE thing was new and the advice we were given is that the company could face a fine for selling onwards non CE marked items as well as having to remove equipment from the market. I am pretty sure that equpiment could be impounded under other legislation if required.

If an enforcement body finds your product does not meet CE marking requirements, they will often provide you with an opportunity to ensure it is correctly CE marked. If you fail to comply with this, you will be obliged to take your product off the market. You may also be liable for a fine and imprisonment.

The above is from https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ce-marking

 

[Tranona]

The first bit is true (as long as the vendor is the builder - dunno if it's a subsequent owner); it would be interesting to have confirmation one way or the other about the second one.

Yes, it is true - and also true of a privately imported boat that does not meet the RCD. Trading Standards have extensive powers - even if it is not obvious how widely they use them.

However in the early days of RCD there were regular items in the yotty press of individuals falling foul of the new rules. Indeed I recall in the early 2000's a long article in PBO of a person who sailed his rufty tufty plastic Colin Archer style boat from Canada only to find he could not use it in the UK without complying. His line that as he had sailed the Atlantic why should he need to prove its seaworthiness? Totally missed the point.

I think the reason why we hear so little about these esoteric events is first because there are so few home built boats of any size and second, intelligent people thinking of importing boats are well aware of the restrictions, so either choose a boat which can easily be certified (as Tom Cunliffe did - and wrote up in YM) or don't bother to import.

That is equally true of traders. First all European boats which are sold in the UK already comply - the whole point of the RCD being to establish a common standard. Second, those that import boats from the US only import those that comply - not difficult with the small sportsboats in Cat C that are popular. Virtually none of the US yacht builders apart from Legend bother to sell in the EU as the cost of compliance is not justified by the small potential market.