Recovering the Anchor - at the Chain/Rode Splice

[Tranona]

Thanks to those with the helpful answers. I like the metre of loose chain before the splice.

I have 10mm chain because that's what's required for a ten ton boat (!) and I carry the length because 1) that is how the boat came equipped - 60m seems little enough to me btw - and 2) because anchoring in deeper water - say up to 20m requires all that and then some. Surprised the question even needs to be asked!

10mm chain is not necessary for a "10 ton" boat - Lewmar recommend 8mm up to 45' in length boat which is likely to be well over 10 tons (does your forum name imply your boat is 35'?) The safety margin of 8mm for 10 tons is substantial, and the reason I asked is that you could solve your problem of having to use the rope if you habitually anchor in more than 20m of water by going down a size in chain and having more of it. There is no benefit in having a chain too large for the load you can place on it.

There are a lot of myths about chain (and anchor!) sizes that are not supported by either the science or empirical evidence that have been aired frequently both here and in the yachting press - here forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/an-anchor-thread-grab-your-beers-and-popcorn.588994/ is a recent example particularly posts 17,29 and 34 for some of the empirical evidence.

Maybe better to go back to basics and frame your problem differently. Rather than how do you deal with the awkward chain to rope transition when retrieving the rode after anchoring in deeper water, the problem is how do you equip your boat for easy deployment and retrieval of the anchor when anchoring in over 20m of water. Then the simplest solution is increase the length of chain and this becomes much easier from a weight, handling and cost point of view by using 8mm chain. Appreciate you have 10mm and a 10mm gypsy so expensive to change, but you are stuck with a sub optimal solution to your requirements.

As it happens my last but one boat also had a Lofrans Cayman with 50m of 8mm and 30m of 12mm 3 strand. The gypsy handled the rope OK but because the fall into the locker was poor the rope needed a lot of help to actually stow. Fortunately the most common need for laying out more than 50m was not in deep waters, but backed up onto a quay where it was often sensible to drop the anchor well out to keep it clear of other anchors. Retrieval was usually manual for the rope with engine in forward until the chain could go over the gypsy and the rope pulled through the hawse. If I knew what I know now, I would have equipped the boat with 70m of 6mm (boat displaced 5.5 tons), which is what I have done on my current boat of similar displacement.

Was writing this while Jonathan was posting his reply, so excuse the duplication of some of the points.

 

[Slowboat35]

Tranona, thanks for a thoughtful and considered post. That does give one pause for thought, though I am saddled with this configuration and can't change it without huge cost.
Shame Neeves has to be so smug which spoils some of his useful pointers too.

 

[Neeves]

Tranona, thanks for a thoughtful and considered post. That does give one pause for thought, though I am saddled with this configuration and can't change it without huge cost.
Shame Neeves has to be so smug which spoils some of his useful pointers too.

I'm not smug - simply frustrated.

How are we expected give sensible balanced answers when the OP cannot be bothered to give us the deetail.

I am quite happy to give an answer - but its relevance may not be correct - sometimes my fault - to often because I could not devise the foredeck of another persons yacht based on a 2 line opening thread.

Don't shoot the messengers they are trying to be helpful!

The OP has motivation, he needs advise, the messengers are genuinely trying to be helpful - and are not paid for their advice.

Calling me smug is totally invalid, and is simply a reflection on your inability to describe your 'situation' - and if repeated likely to result in a lack of motivation to comment. Many would say not your loss

Jonathan

 

[Mudisox]

I thought this forum allowed people to put their views on air.
One's view / suggestions or experience are only that, not a definitive answer as fact.
We all learn by experience as to how much value we put upon someone's replies.

 

[NormanS]

I'm not sure that the precise layout of the OP's foredeck is all that important. Most of us can visualise the layout. Anchor windlass to bow roller - Doh!
Personally, I wouldn't have a mixed rode, preferring all chain, and since I am still a believer in catenary, I also wouldn't have 6mm "lavvy" chain. However, that's all by the way. The OP has a workable system using two chain hooks, and merely asked if anybody had any better ideas. Several have been suggested, including chain/rope gypsies, hinged chain stoppers, and splicing an appropriate distance from the end of the chain. These are all good viable suggestions. I fail to see the reason to use the thread as an avenue of abuse.

 

[LadyInBed]

I don't much like the single turns around the last link though, looks prone to wear

A length of heat shrink on each strand of the rope at the turn would reduce wear and be easy to see if any wear was occurring.

 

[Neeves]

A length of heat shrink on each strand of the rope at the turn would reduce wear and be easy to see if any wear was occurring.

Or cover the turn with braided dyneema webbing and sew, with braided fishing line, the webbing to the cordage. It will be very resistant to abrasion - its all about your patience in sewing. You need to use a hollow dyneema tape as close to the diameter of the cordage as possible. I suspect you can splice the braided dyneema into the cordage - but I have not tried. Most rope makers make hollow tape from braided dyneema - We have used it to provide abrasion resistant covers where wear is a potential issue.

For belt and braces heat shrink over the dyneema braid as LadyinBed suggests.

Most spices will only last 12 months as the chain link will corrode from being soaked in salt water 24/365 - abrasion is unlikely to be the wear mechanism leading to condemnation. The link might be fine but the corrosion unsightly and the unsightliness leading to the (possibly unnecessary) fear. A new splice simply gives peace of mind (which has immense value)

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

Tranona, thanks for a thoughtful and considered post. That does give one pause for thought, though I am saddled with this configuration and can't change it without huge cost.

Recognise that a major change is an expensive way to resolve the problem.

Layout of the foredeck with relationship between the roller, windlass and anchor locker is key to understanding the possibilities for improvement using what you have. For example the Bavaria I referred to earlier had an open (lidded) locker right in the bows with the Lofrans on a platform so the chain dropped down onto a ramp into the locker - all open and easy to access. So dealing with chain pile up of helping the rope clear the bottom of the gypsy was easy. In the other hand my current boat has the anchor on a short bowsprit and about 1m of chain to the Lofrans Kobra horizontal. Chain drops through the deck into a chute leading to the locker down in the bilge. While the Bavaria layout makes handling the rope easy, I would not like to use rope on the current boat as there is no way of getting it to fall cleanly - had the same problem with an earlier boat with basically the same design, but with a vertical axis windlass that lead the rode through a hooded hawse pipe. Hence the choice of smaller chain to get greater length without the weight and bulk penalty.

One of the issues with rope is choosing the right size. Like chain there is a tendency to go for the largest size possible which creates problems getting a smooth splice plus leading it through the hawse and down a pipe/chute if you have one. You don't say what size you have, but 14mm would be OK rather than the 16mm usually used with 10mm chain as it runs better through the pipe.

As to the other possibilities for handling the change over, the chain pawls/stoppers suggested earlier merit consideration, particularly if you have clear space between the end of the anchor shank and the windlass (as I have with my bowsprit mounted roller). I can envisage using the gypsy rather than the capstan for retrieving the rope and if there is a problem with the splice or rope running into the locker, holding with the stopper while you sort it out.

Hope this helps.

 

[lustyd]

A length of heat shrink on each strand of the rope at the turn would reduce wear and be easy to see if any wear was occurring.

Many common types of rope would be negatively affected by the temperature required to shrink heat shrink. I wouldn't recommend this at all unless you meant using it as a thin bit of hose without heating, but I don't think it will give much abrasion resistance either way.

 

[vyv_cox]

A length of heat shrink on each strand of the rope at the turn would reduce wear and be easy to see if any wear was occurring.

As has been discussed earlier, the link(s) to which rope is spliced are very prone to corrosion due to being in contact with wet rope. I suspect that encasing the rope in a plastic sleeve might accelerate the corrosion and make it more difficult to inspect.

 

[Refueler]

My anchor winch has both chain / rope gypsy and plain rope drum .......

An earlier post said not to use 8 plait for splice to chain ..... ??? I have exactly that ... in fact plait is better as then no matter what twist / action is imparted into the rope rode during use - it will not act on the lay of strands as in 3 str etc.

 

[Refueler]

Many common types of rope would be negatively affected by the temperature required to shrink heat shrink. I wouldn't recommend this at all unless you meant using it as a thin bit of hose without heating, but I don't think it will give much abrasion resistance either way.

????? Really ?? I use heat shrink quite often and it has never when correctly done affected / damaged rope.

 

[lustyd]

????? Really ?? I use heat shrink quite often and it has never when correctly done affected / damaged rope.

Yes, really. I did a quick Google and all of the temperatures were readily available. Heat shrink needs more heat than melting point of Dyneema but less than Nylon or Polyester. Heat guns are about the melting point of Nylon and Polyester though, so even though heat shrink is a few degrees lower it would be very hard to guarantee you didn't damage the rope in the process and weaken it.

 

[thinwater]

Wear on chain back splices is really just not an issue. Find an image of a chafed one. Every windlass manufacture specs them for combination rodes.

a. There is no movement vs. the last link. It is SO much easier for the next link to bend, the rope never moves in relation to the link. Ever.

b. There is no pressure holding the rope agains the sea floor. All it has to lift is one link, and not the weight of a shackle and thimble. Less chafe then with a thimble. Counter intuitive, unless you think about it.

Normally the splice is re-made every 3-5 years, in part because of corrosion under the splice (always wet) and in part to trim back the first 2 meters of rope (always good practice) or to end-for-end.

 

[Neeves]

Yes, really. I did a quick Google and all of the temperatures were readily available. Heat shrink needs more heat than melting point of Dyneema but less than Nylon or Polyester. Heat guns are about the melting point of Nylon and Polyester though, so even though heat shrink is a few degrees lower it would be very hard to guarantee you didn't damage the rope in the process and weaken it.

This is incorrect on a number of counts.

You can source heat shrink that will shrink in boiling water, so at or below 100 degrees C and heat is controlled at 100 degrees C or less. If you use tightly fitting sleeves and shrink then the sleeve you achieve after heating is quite thin. If you use oversized sleeves the resultant sleeves is quite thick, almost stiff and sturdy. There is a limit, I don't know what it is, if too loose it will not shrink enough

I have been using it on dyneema when the bury is too short which I overcome with sewing the buried end(s) and I asked Dyneema, the company, about the impact of heat for heat shrink on dyneema (to protect the sewing, dyneema thread). Their reply was that at the temperature I quoted and the time necessary to shrink heat shrink the process would not impact at all on the strength characteristics of dyneema. The heat shrink reduces in diameter but not very much, if at all for length.

The problem of course is that many will use a heat gun, or similar (gas stove, blow torch etc) with uncontrolled temperature and that is a different issue. The difference between a 'safe temperature' and one that will damage is 'tight'. But a frying pan half filled with water over a camping stove, for example, would allow you to shrink a reasonable length, my longest is about 200mm, of heat shrink onto a splice.

I do agree that if you have a long sleeve of heat shrink on a chain rope splice then the heat shrink may exacerbate corrosion - particularly on old chain where the gal is already worn. But you will see the corrosion through the heat shrink (or you will if transparent which is the only heat shrink for rope I know of) and can cut the splice off and make a new one - every year or 5 years, whatever.

Climbing rope, nylon, often comes with a sewn eye with the sewing covered and protected with heat shrink. Though many users will cut the eye off as being a hinderance to usage.

Rope other than Dyneema will have different temperature limits - ask Marlow.

Edited reply from Dyneema, I asked about other applications and uses of dyneema

I quote:

• Temperature resistance in below table: short time exposure to 130oC is not an issue. So boiling water in several minutes is ok.
• 
  
• Hope this answers your questions. Let me know if any more questions.

Best regards,

end quote

I think all rope manufacturers have technical departments - ask them.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

It’s not incorrect at all. You specifically sourced a special heat shrink for the reasons I stated. If anything you confirmed that standard heat shrink is problematic. I doubt many of us have such low temp heat shrink at hand, and most will use a flame or heat gun at hundreds of degrees to shrink it.

 

[Neeves]

It’s not incorrect at all. You specifically sourced a special heat shrink for the reasons I stated. If anything you confirmed that standard heat shrink is problematic. I doubt many of us have such low temp heat shrink at hand, and most will use a flame or heat gun at hundreds of degrees to shrink it.

You are correct I specifically sourced heat shrink for rope - why would I source anything else? You are also correct I sourced it specifically and did not have it to hand. I've sourced 3 different sizes - my mistake has been not realising how useful it is.

I did not source anything special - just a product for the application.

But I did check, with Dyneema, I told them exactly what I was doing and why, as everyone does here when they post a new thread and I received the answer I posted. If you are cavalier - knowing the susceptibility of synthetic ropes to heat- and do not check (like posting here) then.....???

Heat shrink for electric cable, if that is to what you refer, is totally different to heat shrink for rope. Cable heat shrink is thinner and harder, more brittle. Heat shrink for rope shrinks but thickens and is rubbery when applied. I have simply Googled heat shrink for rope, sourced from 2 different suppliers (one Australian and one China, Aliexpress), been supplied with what looks like product to the same specification - that shrinks in boiling water and actually shrinks in temperatures below boiling.

If you refer to heat shrink for cable I really do not understand why anyone would think that heat shrink for copper wire would be applicable to synthetic ropes that you can melt with a match.

I'm not being arrogant - simply speechless, it seems so obvious, check, check and check again - I sent one email (or I could have started a thread here) - its really not difficult.

Jonathan