Rank Stupidity.

[mickshep]

I'm sitting here more angry than I think I can remember being in years, I've just taken part in a scheme that saw me, along with representatives of all the other emergency services and the power companies talk to over 1700 young children about safety, In the home, garden, country and on the beach etc. etc. Less than 2 weeks later I find myself reading with total disbelief the account of a scout leader being swept to her death in a rubber ring whilst apparently supervising a group of children. Children I might add who would have looked to this person for guidence about what it was safe to do on the beach. I have for years felt that the gradual errosion of our right to be responsible for our own safety and the ever present threat of the nanny state should be fought at every turn. What chance have we when the very people in who's care we place our children don't have the common sense shown by a large proportion of the 6-10 yr olds that I met. People have expressed sympathy for the person concerned, I can not be that charitable, I can only be thankfull that we are not reading about a disaster on the scale of what happened in lyme bay a few years ago. My concern is who was responsible for this adult being put in charge of a group of kids in the first place. Because at the end of the day I can see only 2 alternatives, Either she was looking after children at the beach with no idea of basic beach safety or, she knew what the safety advice was and ignored it anyway, Sorry if I've ruffled any feathers out there but where kids and safety are concerned there's no room for nicities. Still angry, Mick

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[longjohnsilver]

Doesn't the BBC article say that she had a suspected heart attack, that may explain why she got into trouble.

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[mickshep]

Heart attack or otherwise, rubber rings are not meant for the sea. it would make no difference if she were an olympic class swimmer, the kids she was meant to be supervising were being told either directly or by example that it was o.k to go in the sea in a rubber ring. such action by a parent in front of his/her own kids would be bad enough, on the part of a guardian/responsible adult it verges on the lunatic or criminally negligent. Mick

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[wpsalm]

jeeze you guys take a deep breath....kids play with inflatable toys on the beach and have done so forever...some risk so what.....

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[Jacket]

Provided you can swim and have a bit of common sense, surely playing on a rubber rings no more dangerous than going for a swim? If you start getting blown of shore, you jump in and swin ashore. If you get caught in a rip tide youre probably better off on an inflatable than if you were swimming, because at least you have something to keep you afloat till you're rescued.

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[vyv_cox]

I think you underestimate the risks. Certainly kids have played in inflatables on the beach for years. Some of them were blown out to sea. Some of them didn't come back. Totally unnecessary losses, given a little more sense and awareness by those responsible for them. In onshore winds playing in surf or similar - no problem at all, I've done it and so have my kids. Reverse the wind direction and it's totally different. Have a look at the RNLI statistics. Incredible proportion of rescues are of inflatable beach craft containing one or two kids, even whole families in their bathing suits.

As has been said, we don't know the facts about this case yet. If the wind was the same in North Wales as it was generally it was somewhere around southerly, i.e. offshore at Porth Colmon. Knowing the place pretty well as I do, believe me it is nothing like messing about at Bournemouth or Abersoch. Not far out of your depth you are in a strong tidal current up or down the coast.

Just around the corner from Colmon there is a rock called Maen Mellt about 20 metres or so from the cliffs, with deep water between. Sailing through the gap at certain states of the tide is quite an experience, there's a difference of two feet or more uptide and downtide of it. A little further on I have seen a standing wave right across the smooth water near the coast. It's caused by a change in depth from 28 to 21 metres. This is serious water, not to be messed about in.

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[mickshep]

I take it you would have been happy for the lady concerned to take your kids and their rubber rings to the beach then?

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[Peppermint]

Re: More danger than you might think.

As a kid I lived in Libya. School finished at noon so we hit the beach or the pool every day. I hardly new anyone who couldn't swim 3-4 miles in open water. We still had one rule and that was never chase a ball or ring in an offshore wind.

A. they go a lot faster thus further than you might think.

B. When you turn for home you are encumbered by the floating object and the wind and spray is blowing into your face.

We lost 3 servicemen in these circumstances.

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[snooks]

swim?

When was the last time you went swiming (totally immersed) off the beach at this time of year (April)?

"If you start getting blown off shore...."

What do you mean "if you start"? surely if there is even the slightest of risk you don't go in the water. Simple and safe

Jump in! swim ashore! are you mad?

At this time of year the water temp is less than 10 degrees, that would mean you could swim for all of....erm 5-10 mins at the very most. If you're not wearing any clothing you'll probably last less

By trying to swim you're loosing valuable heat from your arms and legs....and you shouldn't really be exerting yourself within the first two minutes of falling into the water, unless you can be sure of reaching safety well within that time.

If someone was foolish enough to go out in a inflatable ring these would be my reasons for staying with it:

It keeps you out of the water, therefore warmer
You use less energy if you are in/on/holding onto it
Is that it's easier to spot than a head in the water

Think how much grief a proper inflatable tender causes most of us, whether with oars of motor, then thinks about the sanity of someone going on the water in a rubber ring.....in Wales, April!


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[Guest]

Dont miss the real point, it is very sad that someone lost their lives in these circumstances. I believe given time to think about it mickshep may be more compassionate, but I can understand his frustration.

The real issue here is nothing to do with beaches or swimming, the real issue is people like mickshep spend their time offering safety advise to probably a less than attentive audiance of 10 year olds, only to have his hard work undone buy someone who should be a role model.

Look at it this way, "come on kids, never mind the pedestrian bridge, we can cross the A3 by climbing under the crash barrier, that will get us to the Scout hut"!

Lead by good example.

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[Peppermint]

Re: I agree but...

I'm sitting here trying to think of any Scout leader, Youth leader or even Teacher I've ever known who I or anyone else thought of as a role model.

I've come up empty

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[Guest]

Re: I agree but...

OK, so role model might be the wrong term, but if young lad sees teacher, youth leader, scout leader (parent!) doing something, then it must be ok for him to do, right?

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[hillyarder]

Re: I agree but...

the woman had a heart attack. none of the kids were injured except perhaps psychologically. why is everyone so much holier than thou.

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[wpsalm]

Would I be happy to have the lady concerned take my kids to the beach ??? Sure. Well an accident happened very sad. the alternatives keep the kids in a cage till they,re 18 take em to the beach myself make them stay home and watch tv..

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[escape]

Since wpsalm would be happy to let his children go to the beach with such a guardian/responsible person and think their actions reasonable then without wishing to appear to crass I think we are seeing a good example of survival of the fittest.
If the poor lady did suffer heart failure was this due to water temp./stress/panic.
As others have said this is a serious bit of water, anchoring can be difficult due to severe tide and poor holding and the ability to make any meaningful swimming motion in water below 15C is an impossibility unless aclimatised.
As a family we have a very active life including horse riding , skiing , offshore sailing and even driving down the M6 BUT we way up the risks,minimse them and enjoy.
I hate the idea of the nanny state but actions like these onlt give amunition to those who want to impose such a situation.....IMHO

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[Dominic]

Darwin Award ?

We await the exact details of the incident.

My initial impression is that this was either a most unfortunate accident or stupidity.

If the former, then I can say nothing other than to offer condolences. Accidents can happen to the most carefully prepared and sensible of us despite our thorough precautions and best intentions.

If the latter then I hope she didn´t breed.

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[seahorse]

Re: I agree but what brought on the MI ??N.M

.

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[Jeremy_W]

Re: Darwin Award ?

>>>We await the exact details of the incident.
>>>My initial impression is that this was either a most unfortunate accident or stupidity.

Like you, I'd rather wait a day or two for the full details to emerge, but from what has been in the news so far, stupidity is the front runner.

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[kingfisher]

Parents are smarter ?

Like the dad who decided to tow his children around on a ring with a PWC?!?

Latest developments in scouting:
1) Activities should be no-risk. So we are now looking into keeping each scout in a glass bubble, and replacing pen knives with plastic cutlery. Although the chemical properties have still to be examined.

2) But parents are allowed to do as they please
eg1. I was standing at the gate, and making a general nuisance of myself because quite a few scouts were not wearing the correct uniform. In the evening a received an irrate call from a mum, that I had dared to send her son home unaccompagnied on his bycicle. That the kid came unacompagnied to the scouts was apparently not a problem
eg2 our base is along a busy road. We have sacrificed some of our precious lawn, and obtained a huge starboard bouy to use as a centrepiece for a roundabout. So parents simply have to drive onto the grounds, drive round the bouy and drop off the kids. And still they manage to stop alongside the road, and drop off their kid on the other side of the dangerous road. Anyone wants to take a guess who will be held liable if one of these kids is swooped up by a lorry?

My fondest memories of the sense of adventure that scouting can bring are of activities that are now outlawed or considered too risky. Some of it is due to the increase in trafic, both at sea and on the road (rowing a sloop across the Westerscheld), but a lot of it is due to the fact that an 'accident' doesn't exist anymore, there is always someone to blame. And as much as I like to offer up some of my free time to give back a small bit of what I got out of scouting, I'm not willing to stand trial for it.

<hr width=100% size=1>Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: Parents are smarter ?

A question, do you have children, if I was running some kind of adventure centre and one of your kids was injured or even killed during an activity such as white water rafting while under my care.

Would you put it down to an accident, you and your child knew there were risks, the boat overturned and your child died in an accident, it was avoidable; we could have gone rafting in summer when there are no rapids but a mere trickle of water.

Would you be beating down my front door after my blood, taking me to the cleaners so I lived in poverty all my life for trying to give your child experiences in life which include fear and teamwork.

I am not having a go, I would hope that I would choose option one, but I do not have children, I stand here and am saddened by this blame culture society, the fact that children are not allowed to do anything that I did, I lived, but was that the accident? Should I have died sailing a mirror dinghy 5 miles offshore, or a 14ft angling boat miles offshore with only a hand compass and photocopied chart, my dad allowed me to do this, was he mad or did he trust that that I was sensible enough to choose my risks and able to cope in the event of an emergency.

I am just wondering what you would feel like with the boot on the other foot, like I said I hope I can do it, I hope I can trust my own child, but I wont know until it happens. Be honest in your response.

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