Radar in 2020

[lustyd]

I trained on radar...a while ago. I just (finally) bought a boat with a radar set which is functional but pretty old and not up to modern standards, it's at the chart table so useless for short handing and doesn't interface with the outside world so won't show anything on my plotter at the helm until I select a target.

Long story short I need some upgrades, and budget isn't necessarily the main driver.

The new boat has enough windage as it is and I'm wondering whether radar adds enough benefit to justify the extra plus power draw plus expense. What is radar really giving me if I implement AIS? I get that before AIS it was awesome, been there and lived it. But in 2020? What does radar offer the smaller boat that AIS doesn't? AIS will more consistently spot any boat I really care about plus a few others I don't. AIS isn't what I consider optional so it will be there whether radar is installed or not.

I guess the real question is, am I upgrading radar just because it's already there and I like toys? If you didn't have it already, would you fit it to a new <40' yacht?

 

[pvb]

I guess the real question is, am I upgrading radar just because it's already there and I like toys? If you didn't have it already, would you fit it to a new <40' yacht?

I'd certainly fit radar to a new yacht (and I did when I bought mine). I find the radar/chart overlay is very useful, and very easy to interpret. AIS is additional info, but not all boats transmit AIS.

 

[burgundyben]

I've been pondering the same thing.

Looks to me that products such as the AIS radar that NASA sell does 90% of what a radar would do.

 

[mainsail1]

I have just replaced my radar and plotter. The new ones use much less power than my old one. I still think I need radar to highlight all the objects that do not have AIS, for example, there are many small boats without AIS.

 

[johnalison]

This is a regular question here. My feeling is that you need to ask yourself what kind of sailing you are going to do. If you are going to confine yourself to coastal sailing or will have the freedom to choose the weather, then AIS is a decent back-up for poor visibility if it catches you out, as well as being useful in good conditions when shipping is present. If you want or need to be prepared for anything, then radar is going to be essential. My sense is that AIS would go a long way towards comforting me and keeping me safe if caught out in fog but wouldn't allow me to set out when fog was a possibility. With radar I would, and have, sailed in the Channel and North Sea in fog having set out knowing that it was on the cards.

 

[lustyd]

I think my point wasn't that AIS does everything radar does, but more that the things small (<40') yachts need are all covered by AIS. I don't think I care that I'll miss smaller boats, and on radar they just add clutter. Modern plotters largely negate the need for radar to spot the coast or a buoy, and both systems fail together anyway. @pvb you seem keen on radar, what are you getting out of it over and above plotter and AIS? You said useful rather than interesting but please feel free to amend that back to interesting - which I certainly agree with but will put radar back into the fun toy category

 

[lustyd]

@johnalison what is it about radar that gives you such confidence? it's no more guaranteed to spot a ship than AIS and no more likely to show a rock than a plotter. Connectivity means radar identifying weather is unlikely to be useful too outside of sterring around a squall?

 

[doug748]

I am a massive AIS fan and an early adopter, when the initial reaction here was pretty hostile.

However on a 40ft new boat I would certainly fit radar:

Power won't be a problem
It's a boat you are not likely to just daysail
The dome will not be a hindrance at that size
Redundancy is useful when venturing further afield
Should you sell in the shorter term it is the sort of kit that will be expected
It will pick up stuff that AIS can't

 

[lustyd]

Thanks Doug, that just seems like inertia though, you didn't really mention a benefit so much as list why there are no downsides to the status quo. Perhaps if I rework the question a bit and say if someone invented radar today what would be the advantage over a solution with very reliable plotter and AIS? In my experience yes, radar can spot things, but to do so reliably takes more work than most will put in. Even then you don't know what it is, and it's unlikely to be something bothersome that you weren't already aware of - perhaps I lack imagination

 

[doug748]

I have done a number of channel crossings in fog and AIS makes that possible but it's a testing time and you can be on edge for 20 hours. I think radar would be a great extra reassurance in such circumstances. Esp now when you don't need to interpret so much with overlays
Making landfalls in poor conditions as well, it gives another string to your bow.
People have reported rogue fishing boats large and small in places like N Spain . Offshore sailors have said they use radar to spot squall conditions but I don't know about that, might be useful.

 

[lustyd]

Ah I think I see where you're coming from now. I kind of disagree with the landfall thing as these days at least I trust a plotter for that. I do get the rsurance in fog though - I feel like you're saying it's the difference between being told there's a thing and seeing a thing. radar is like eyes, although you have to interpret it feels real while AIS is less direct even if more straightforward.
That kind of swings it for me. The one time I use it will be pricey but you make complete sense! Also, I do want the toy aspect at the helm to be fair.

 

[st599]

Radar is great if you know how to use it, baffling if you don't.

The course is outdated, the software is based on a 1980s CRT or an early raymarine and most of the course time is taken up plotting on paper.

Modern CW radar is great. One issue is, does everyone on your boat know how to use it? IRPCS requires a watch is maintained by all available means.

 

[pvb]

I think my point wasn't that AIS does everything radar does, but more that the things small (<40') yachts need are all covered by AIS. I don't think I care that I'll miss smaller boats, and on radar they just add clutter. Modern plotters largely negate the need for radar to spot the coast or a buoy, and both systems fail together anyway. @pvb you seem keen on radar, what are you getting out of it over and above plotter and AIS? You said useful rather than interesting but please feel free to amend that back to interesting - which I certainly agree with but will put radar back into the fun toy category

A year or so ago, I came out of Dover early one morning, into thick fog. The radar was very welcome, identifying boats which were there but which I couldn't see (and which weren't transmitting AIS). It didn't pick up a tiny dinghy with several fishermen in it, but thankfully I spotted that in time!

 

[wully1]

I had radar and AIS on my last boat. The radar was old and pretty useless.

I fitted a new plotter and AIS which wirelessly linked to my iPad in its waterproof case which was great.

On new (old) boatie if funds permit I will fit a new gen radar and plotter with the AIS that will pair with the iPad. I think this will be a perfect set up for me - toys at the chart table with all the info wherever I am on boatie.

 

[pvb]

I had radar and AIS on my last boat. The radar was old and pretty useless.

I fitted a new plotter and AIS which wirelessly linked to my iPad in its waterproof case which was great.

On new (old) boatie if funds permit I will fit a new gen radar and plotter with the AIS that will pair with the iPad. I think this will be a perfect set up for me - toys at the chart table with all the info wherever I am on boatie.

I think the real stuff should be in the cockpit, accessible to the helm. The iPad etc alternatives should be kept below, out of harm's way.

 

[ashtead]

We acquired a new 12.8 m boat in 2015 - while I had previously only used an open array furuno with roughly a60m range in the med we went for a ray marine enclosed version. We use it rarely but compared to value of boat it seemed wise for channel sailing- useful for french fishing boats which don’t have ais -if you buy rather depends on plans though as if sailing in Solent might be limited value.

 

[Sea-Fever]

I wonder how many rogue fishing vessels there will be in channel if there is no Brexit deal....all busy switching off their AIS ??

 

[Uricanejack]

I trained on radar...a while ago. I just (finally) bought a boat with a radar set which is functional but pretty old and not up to modern standards, it's at the chart table so useless for short handing and doesn't interface with the outside world so won't show anything on my plotter at the helm until I select a target.

Long story short I need some upgrades, and budget isn't necessarily the main driver.

The new boat has enough windage as it is and I'm wondering whether radar adds enough benefit to justify the extra plus power draw plus expense. What is radar really giving me if I implement AIS? I get that before AIS it was awesome, been there and lived it. But in 2020? What does radar offer the smaller boat that AIS doesn't? AIS will more consistently spot any boat I really care about plus a few others I don't. AIS isn't what I consider optional so it will be there whether radar is installed or not.

I guess the real question is, am I upgrading radar just because it's already there and I like toys? If you didn't have it already, would you fit it to a new <40' yacht?

My radar came with my boat, like yours is pretty basic, and at the chart table so rarely used, actually never used.
location is a problem.
the radar works just fine, and provides a handy perch for shithawks of various types. I have contemplated removing the scanner. Particularly after scrubbing the deck again.
More sober reflections tell me this would be daft. I have perfectly good radar, should I ever need it.
I don’t have AIS on my own boat, I am quite familiar with AIS and use it regularly on an other boat. It’s certainly nice to have but it is not a replacement for radar. It’s an addition to radar.

since I have to go out in fog,
if my AIS quits, I find that annoying and inconvenient.
if my radar quits. I don’t go.
why?
very simple AIS does not show me all the stuff I want to see.
Radar might not show me everything but it show me pretty darn close to everything.

GPS and plotters might be very comforting my plotter quits. Annoying.
My radar quits I ain’t going.

Why?
plotter and GPS might be very good but it’s not and observed position and may be subject to error. without an observation I will not detect the error.
Radar is an observation.
if I want to confirm where I am I use the radar. Chart overlay is very nice. Most of the time.
One confirms what I am seeing on the other.

They work well together. Fitting both is a good idea.

As you can possibly guess my choice of one or the other is radar.

why? Because radar gives me a more complete picture.
AIS gives me a lot of good information but not a complete picture.

I read all sorts of threads where a variety of people will say AIS is the best thing since sliced bread. And you don’t need anything else.
the proof being they felt confident enough to go out in fog and have survived.

So I am probably wasting my time trying to explain why radar is still important.

 

[johnalison]

@johnalison what is it about radar that gives you such confidence? it's no more guaranteed to spot a ship than AIS and no more likely to show a rock than a plotter. Connectivity means radar identifying weather is unlikely to be useful too outside of sterring around a squall?

I refer you to Uricanejack's excellent post above. As for confidence, I would only say that my chief memory is of encountering fog of about quarter-mile thickness on a N Sea crossing some years ago late in the evening when is was getting dark with my old B&W radar. I felt quite confident in continuing at 6kn, knowing that I could 'see' what was ahead. It is true that there could have been some small floating obstructions, but this would have been no different from night sailing anyway. Doing the same with AIS would have been a far more alarming experience, while the four hours or so on this occasion were little more than a nuisance.

You are right about rain too. Early warning to don oilies is appreciated. I haven't used radar for navigation myself, mainly because of GPS and the sort of coastlines I have visited.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Agree with Uricanejack et al. AIS shows you only those vessels that have the incorrectly-named transponder fitted. Radar shows you anything that can reflect the ping. Boats. Buoys, Rocks. Jetties. Rain squalls. Flock of seagulls. (but probably not the Brighton football team).

Agreed it requires some interpretation. But having had both, if I had to choose one and only one, I'd pick radar every time. But I'd prefer both.