Radar in 2020

[powerskipper]

This is what the modern radar can do, Raymarine Quantum 2 Radar with Doppler collision

Doppler collision avoidance.

 

[powerskipper]

And when the GPS has a little glitch, and the 'north up' on the radar is a few degrees 'deviated', you're sailing short handed, how much experience will you have in decyphering the blobs on the screen?
It's all very nice when the navaids all agree with one another, but it's not always like that.
Sometimes it's safer to know that you're lost?

That can be adjusted easily.

 

[lustyd]

Thanks powerskipper that's great to see an example. I'll be going B&G but assume it's all at about the same level these days

TernVI I can see where you're coming from but I definitely want the modern experience with occasional glitch!

 

[TernVI]

"North up" takes its reference from a fluxgate compass normally, not the GPS.

That's why it's prone to deviation......

 

[Robin]

"North up" takes its reference from a fluxgate compass normally, not the GPS.

yes but needs a decent newgen fast response heading sensor too. otherwise IIRC it will 'default' to using GPS generated COG.

 

[prv]

yes but needs a decent newgen fast response heading sensor too. otherwise IIRC it will 'default' to using GPS generated COG.

It shouldn't do, because COG is so often sufficiently different to heading to be significant for radar purposes.

I know some older Raymarine kit did for a while, but they updated the firmware to stop it.

Pete

 

[Robin]

It shouldn't do, because COG is so often sufficiently different to heading to be significant for radar purposes.

I know some older Raymarine kit did for a while, but they updated the firmware to stop it.

Pete

I upgraded our network to the latest heading sensor as the old fluxgate and associated pilot were not capable of linking anyway unless I had new course computer too. The new sensor gives a very much more stable view in chart overlay mode and it is left set to 'north up' mostly., albeit it remains untested by me in busy
shipping traffic or poor vis. I learned radar on old sets (stare down a plastic tube even) and still mentally at least 'plot' collision avoidance as of old despite now having MARPA and AIS overlaid on the chart on screen on theflybridge and repeated below on an android notebook.. Radar is a fantastic tool but IMHO needs to be practiced in clear calm conditions to become second nature for when it really matters.

 

[jimi]

I don’t use radar often but when ido use it, it has been invaluable... fog and lobster pots and other unlit buoys at night. I’ve got the display at the helm, ais is on the computer downstairs.

 

[Mark-1]

yes but needs a decent newgen fast response heading sensor too. otherwise IIRC it will 'default' to using GPS generated COG.

It doesn't silently default to COG but you can set it to use COG.

 

[Robin]

It doesn't silently default to COG but you can set it to use COG.

Having slept on it I think it refused (As in 'no heading data found' ) to acknowledge the old seatalk fluxgate and therefore 'offered' to use COG, now the newgen sensor speaksto it in fluent N2K. I also said mine is set to display north up mostly for chart display but I use ships head up mainly for radar viewpoint inshore./in harbours for clarity if my ancient mk1 eyeball is struggling. The evolution from old paper nav to latest gizmos fogs my ancient brain.

 

[prv]

Having slept on it I think it refused (As in 'no heading data found' ) to acknowledge the old seatalk fluxgate

Ok, but that's not a general thing. My C-Series setup used the autopilot fluxgate over seatalk to put the radar north-up.

Pete

 

[dunedin]

.................... I’ve got the display at the helm, ais is on the computer downstairs.

As post #41 shows, if having gone to the cost and effort of fitting both AIS and Radar, its much better to be able to combine and overlay them to get the best mental picture of what is happening.
Many of the bigger radar targets will typically align with an AIS target, which helps confirm and can get full details (and TCPA etc) from the AIS.
Then it is a matter of working out what the smaller targets might be - chart overlay helps identify if a navigation buoy or other (relatively) fixed target in an expected location. This just leaves any remaining targets - which could be the ones to worry about, fishing boats, yachts, RIBs etc.

And in fog I don’t want to be going below for anything. But with WiFi connection to modern plotters, I can have both Radar and AIS always in the skippers hand on the iPad, whilst the helm can use the other plotter to keep navigation and course.

 

[Birdseye]

I trained on radar...a while ago. I just (finally) bought a boat with a radar set which is functional but pretty old and not up to modern standards, it's at the chart table so useless for short handing and doesn't interface with the outside world so won't show anything on my plotter at the helm until I select a target.

Long story short I need some upgrades, and budget isn't necessarily the main driver.

The new boat has enough windage as it is and I'm wondering whether radar adds enough benefit to justify the extra plus power draw plus expense. What is radar really giving me if I implement AIS? I get that before AIS it was awesome, been there and lived it. But in 2020? What does radar offer the smaller boat that AIS doesn't? AIS will more consistently spot any boat I really care about plus a few others I don't. AIS isn't what I consider optional so it will be there whether radar is installed or not.

I guess the real question is, am I upgrading radar just because it's already there and I like toys? If you didn't have it already, would you fit it to a new <40' yacht?

I am not sure that I would fit either radar or AIS on a new <40ft yacht. I certainly wouldnt fit a log and probably not a plotter - a gps and paper charts would be my choices. For me the key toys are a really good pilot, a gps ( or several), a VHF and a depth sounder. The rest are options.

I have both a 3G radar and AIS on my current 36footer. The radar is a bit more use than the AIS because it does spot boats less than 300tf which dont have to carry AIS plus those above that size who chose to turn AIS off. But the truth is you v=cant really rely on either of them and so have to use your eyes all the time.

Depending on the boat, what I would flash the cash on are really good sails, a decent feathering prop, coppercoat antifoul and as I said a good pilot which to me means below deck and hydraulic.

 

[lustyd]

I definitely don't consider a plotter to be optional in 2020. Paper charts are a definite optional nice to have these days. I do like the paper but I rarely use it. Pilot books are a money maker pure and simple. The information in them is generally quite poor and not updated very thoroughly so it's generally easier and better to ask on a forum/facebook or watch someone in that location on YouTube. I agree on the log, it's nice to see when working, but that two week window after lift in isn't long enough to be worthwhile
I'd even argue that for the majority of weekend sailers a depth sounder would be secondary to a plotter these days. In the Solent for instance if you keep to channels and harbours then the depth sounder adds pretty much nothing to the party. I'd certainly always fit one, but it's not something I feel compelled to use very often (anchoring being an obvious exception).

 

[doug748]

#41 shows us the limitations of radar for the shorthanded sailing boat. You get the same level of clarity with 5 pints of Speckled Hen and a kaleidoscope

But

On the OP's new boat and with the quite small cost implications, I would still fit it for its help in open waters on the larger boat with crew.

.

 

[Robin]

Ok, but that's not a general thing. My C-Series setup used the autopilot fluxgate over seatalk to put the radar north-up.

Pete

My inherited a series may have too but went tits up before being replaced with a new Axiom9 at which time I had the latest heading sensor fitted as well.

 

[Stemar]

a depth sounder would be secondary to a plotter these days. In the Solent for instance if you keep to channels and harbours then the depth sounder adds pretty much nothing to the party

For some, maybe.

I know my way around a good bit of the Solent pretty well and, with a bilge keeler, enjoy anchoring in shallow corners, when the depth sounder is essential. OTOH, once out of those corners, my basic passage plan is "stay off the green bits", though, except at low springs, I've been known to ignore that bit of wisdom too, when the sounder comes in handy again.

 

[jimi]

IMHO the depthsounder is one of THE essential bits of kit on a boat! Partic on the east coast where I am now, but even in the Solent its pretty damn useful when piloting into a narrow channel by using it (in conjunction with chart) to stay to one side so you know exactly what direction to turn when it gets too shallow. Its also fairly useful in deciding when to tack .. otherwise I the OP works out the height of tide and applies to charted depth allowing for atmospheric influences.

 

[davethedog]

There is an old adage that I fell very apt when we are talking about radar and AIS.............It is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

We have both and the new QUANTUM 2 doppler radar with the Axiom Pro MFD is excellent (although not cheap) and we have used it many times as we sail short handed and the guard zones etc are much better than the old analogue radar we had. As has been said numerous times, AIS only shows vessels that are transmitting and some vessels (fishing boats) have been known to turn their AIS off now and again (or they may have just been experiencing technical issues LOL).

 

[lustyd]

My point really was that the vast majority of boaters in the solent don't pilot into narrow channels, they drive from Southampton or Hamble to Cowes or Yarmouth and stick to the channels when doing so. As such, a plotter is useful to see where the channels and shallow bits are but the depth sounder is only useful if you venture onto those shallow parts.
For what it's worth I started this thread to discuss what's needed rather than how it's currently done as I find it interesting to see whether the way it's done is time for a change. Depth sounders were certainly useful when reliable charts and location were less easy to come by but I think less so as charts become ever more accurate and gps can tell you where the front and back of your boat are. Yes, there might be something new on the bottom, but there are almost no circumstances where a depth sounder will prevent that collision if you think about it.