Radar – is it worth it on a 40 year old 30 footer?

[BrianH]

The AIS Rx is directly linked to an almost new plotter. In the Solent on a quite weekday or at 6:30 in the morning it works well. At lunch time on a nice Sunday things start to go wrong with huge numbers of boats transmitting (dozens of which are alongside on the Hamble and elsewhere) and the system starts to get overloaded. I understand that the authorities are considering allocating more channels to AIS but that is clearly a long term measure.

Since installing the new toy I have watched it quite closely and, on a busy day, it is not unusual to have a warning about a relatively slow moving target that is already well past. Checking the individual transmissions I have found on more than one occasion a time stamp 20 minutes old and 10 minutes is very common as are flags for "poor GPS accuracy". So in confined and busy waters it is not that useful - although I have it on with alarms disabled. In the channel it is a different matter.

Thanks for the clarification. Never having sailed the Solent or similar such crowded waters I have never experienced your problem. No wonder the Class A professional craft have the ability to filter Class B signals.

 

[JohnDL]

I don't see what the age or size of boat has to do with it. I installed radar on our cheap and ancient Centaur after being caught out in thick fog approaching Calf Sound one time. As Alant says, it has other uses as well, such as assisting pilotage at night and collision avoidance in daylight. Needs to be seen and operated from the helm, pointless having it down below on a short handed boat.

I agree, the point was more about lost value, a 40 year old boat is a 40 year old boat and after a certain point putting more kit on it has no real impact on resale value. And that point was passed a while back.

 

[GrahamM376]

I agree, the point was more about lost value, a 40 year old boat is a 40 year old boat and after a certain point putting more kit on it has no real impact on resale value. And that point was passed a while back.

Very few will recover the money spent on a boat but, the better the condition and equipment, makes it easier to sell against other similar boats.

 

[doug748]

I agree, the point was more about lost value, a 40 year old boat is a 40 year old boat and after a certain point putting more kit on it has no real impact on resale value. And that point was passed a while back.

Yes, it's a mugs game, we all do it.

If it makes you happier go for it. Everyone has different priorities. Though I doubt you could maintain the degree of singlehanded attention needed to avoid pot buoys via any screen based device.
I have the same size of boat but decided against. The charge sheet against traditional radar is a long one, though the new sets seem much improved. When they are 400 quid all in, wireless, portable and draw .1 amp I will look again ;-)
I have uprated my AIS arrangements and can now transmit, even that kit I only switch on four or five times a season. In fog this gives you a handle on things, you adapt. If you see it as a game of risk, remember that as old codgers the chips we are gambling with are pretty cheap ones. Merry Christmas.....

 

[Arcady]

It doesn’t have to be £3k. It’s an old boat. eBay is your friend: I acquired a very tidy Raymarine system less than 10 years old for £600 - it’s still current enough to integrate with my AIS receiver and other kit. If you’re happy sailing around in a vessel with 40 year old components, What’s wrong with a 10 year old radar? In answer to the original question, on my 45 year old 10m boat, I would not want to be without the radar in certain situations!

 

[JohnDL]

It doesn’t have to be £3k. It’s an old boat. eBay is your friend: I acquired a very tidy Raymarine system less than 10 years old for £600 - it’s still current enough to integrate with my AIS receiver and other kit. If you’re happy sailing around in a vessel with 40 year old components, What’s wrong with a 10 year old radar? In answer to the original question, on my 45 year old 10m boat, I would not want to be without the radar in certain situations!

I had considered that and even checked on eBay but rejected the option. In no particular order...

1. If (I suspect now when) I install one I want it integrated with the Garmin chart plotter as there is no room topside for another display which may or may not be practical with older kit.
2. I don't want a 4KW radar close to deck level and I don't want to add to the clutter on the mast for reasons of weight and having something else for lines to get tangled with, there is already the radar reflector, folding steps all the way up, lazy jacks etc. and they cause enough bother already.
3. A modern broad band radar gives far better performance and most importantly uses far less power, the Garmin c 30W and less if used on a short range setting and less again if used for say 2 minutes in 10 (yes you can do the same on older radars but not as well given warm up times etc.). I have reasonable battery capacity but a potentially hungry autopilot with only 35A from the alternator albeit with a 4 step regulator and 75W of solar in perfect conditions with no practical way of getting above c105W in total and only then if the new brand of panels I have come across will actually fit on the coach roof as I think and hope they will. Upgrading the alternator would help but is not cheap,

 

[JohnDL]

Yes, it's a mugs game, we all do it.

In the case of my boat two of us have done it, BIG time although I am still running second - just. Including a complete re-paint, windows, all new deck gear, rigging, anchor windlass (one of mine in deference to encroaching decrepitude), new electronics (me again) etc. etc. the list comes to over £40K and that excludes my labour and quite a few items I can't cost that the previous owner did. And that on a boat that sold for £8.5k a few years ago.

as old codgers the chips we are gambling with are pretty cheap ones.

Yes but I have a few chips stashed away and I want time to spend them

Merry Christmas.....

 

[sailor211]

If you do fit it you should use it. Mine is hinged to sit in the companionway. Last time I was in great need, entering a big port with an US carrier leaving , I couldn’t get a fix on the big steel object due to lack of experience with the settings, poor vis , rain etc. all made for nothing or a wall of radar response. Had to stick to eyeball and sitting in the shallow bit where I thought the carrier would not get me. More practice would have saved the day and reduced the the heart rate.

Harbour master did radio me to inform me I was in shallow water less than 4 m not in the channel. He thought I was a mad Brit.

Also had a close encounter when trying to locate a fast cat I knew was leaving. Following the cat on radar if I not spot a small fishing boat. Mk 1 eyeballing would have been better. Not sure if I could have seen everything with more experience in setting up the display! Should use it more on good days.

For fun I do use it for navigation, distance off etc. Only once a year is it worth the cost, but then did learn to sail in the days when yacht had a log and a-bit of ribbon for wind direction. I am happy with minimal information.

 

[maxi77]

To integrate or not is an interesting question, the all in one place has clear attractions though it can make smaller displays in particular very cluttered which can be confusing. Also there can be times when having different functions on different scales makes things easier. Then there is the all in one basket problem. With a full integrated system if the display goes down then all is lost.

 

[JohnDL]

To integrate or not is an interesting question, the all in one place has clear attractions though it can make smaller displays in particular very cluttered which can be confusing. Also there can be times when having different functions on different scales makes things easier. Then there is the all in one basket problem. With a full integrated system if the display goes down then all is lost.

There is a lot to be said for that but with limited space topside the only option is to put a 2nd plotter below and I am not enclined to do that. Every thing except route guidance to the autopilot and radar will work if the plotter goes down and I have an iPad and a pc with gps as back up. I also learnt navigation before most (all?) of this technology was invented and the Walker towed log was still in widespread use, so I can always use the chart, compass, square protractor and a pencil Not that I want to, much more relaxing to use the technology.

 

[Gwylan]

Use the AIS. Have a display at the helm. Save the money.

 

[JohnDL]

Use the AIS. Have a display at the helm. Save the money.

I have AIS, plotter, VHF and autopilot head at the helm. But AIS does not show the majority of hazards to a single handed sailor, hence the question. Just not sure of the cost : reward ratio of modern (broad band) radar.

 

[Gwylan]

We had a GPS and that was it on our Achilles.

On the current Westerly we have a plotter at the helm which also shows AIS signals.

Missing buoys is maybe a matter of seamanship. Fishing boats are controlled by an alien and unpredictable force.

 

[JohnDL]

We had a GPS and that was it on our Achilles.

On the current Westerly we have a plotter at the helm which also shows AIS signals.

Missing buoys is maybe a matter of seamanship. Fishing boats are controlled by an alien and unpredictable force.

You sold an Achilles for a Westerly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if it was a small one I may forgive you

Some would say that sailing single handed is not good seamanship (and is against the rules) but many of us do it. Just trying to minimise the risks to all concerned.

I fish from the boat on occasion so will make no substantive comment on that but they do seem to crop up at the most inopportune times.

 

[Triassic]

I'm tempted to simply say that if you feel the need for radar then you should probably get it as something is clearly nagging at the back of your mind and nothing is guaranteed to spoil your sailing experience more than a feeling of vulnerability. Having said that overconfidence can be just as dangerous as ignorance so if by having radar you are likely to get yourself into situations that you would otherwise have avoided is it really enhancing safety on your vessel?

I've only limited experience of sailing with AIS and radar and to be perfectly honest I didn't really find either particularly useful. They are both quite capable of missing something that could bring you substantial grief so on that basis I still had to assume they didn't replace the Mk1 eyeball, hearing and judgement, although they can provide reassurance that you have read the situation correctly.

I don't have either on my boat and I single hand pretty much all the time unless racing.

 

[BelleSerene]

Use the AIS. Have a display at the helm. Save the money.

And if as I suspect your AIS receiver is a single-channel one and that’s the reason for the time lag in it updating target locations, replace it with a dual-channel one. Well under £100 on eBay.

 

[BrianH]

And if as I suspect your AIS receiver is a single-channel one and that’s the reason for the time lag in it updating target locations, replace it with a dual-channel one. Well under £100 on eBay.

This was my first thoughts; that or an inefficient receiver. After all, the combination of both Class A and Class B (SOTDMA & CSTDMA) systems, with many thousands of available slots, surely has the potential of instantly processing all the targets transmitting in the Solent. Whether the standard display can show them in any readable form is, of course, another matter.

 

[JohnDL]

And if as I suspect your AIS receiver is a single-channel one and that’s the reason for the time lag in it updating target locations, replace it with a dual-channel one. Well under £100 on eBay.

No it is a dual channel Garmin AIS300.

 

[GHA]

I have AIS, plotter, VHF and autopilot head at the helm. But AIS does not show the majority of hazards to a single handed sailor, hence the question. Just not sure of the cost : reward ratio of modern (broad band) radar.

Cost / reward is a slightly tricky one to quantify, most of the time it will be "spent all that money and time for not much return", and once every few blue moons it will be " oh my but radar is simply the most wonderful best thing ever ever ever".
Single handed might bend it a bit more in favour with some more security for 10 minute cat naps overnight with guard zone alarm set.

 

[john_morris_uk]

My two penny worth is that the age of the boat etc has nothing to do with it. Both Radar and AIS have limitations but can also be invaluable. Perhaps less valuable in the Solent but on extended passages single handed or not, the ability to set alarm zones to alert you to dangers if you snooze is something single handed sailors of yesteryear would have given their eye teeth for.

Only the OP can decide if the cost benefit equation works for him.

We have both nowadays but I don’t think having either encourages me to be less cautious or risk averse. There have been times when we’ve found ourselves in fog and I’ve been VERY grateful to have a working proven radar. Even in day light and good viz I’ll often check another boat/ship on radar for its range and bearing and to aid my application of IRPCS.