sailorman
Well-known member
They dont make em like him any more /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
R.I.P Sq Ldr Jimmy James M.C.
- Thread starter sailorman
- Start date
sailorman
Well-known member
Squadron Leader Jimmy James
Times Online ^ | 1/18/08
Posted on 01/18/2008 1:32:02 PM PST by Borges
RAF pilot who was awarded the Military Cross for his part in the Great Escape from Stalag Luft III
“Jimmy” James was one of 76 officers who escaped from Stalag Luft III on the night of March 24, 1944, and was fortunate not to be among the 50 executed on Hitler’s order on recapture. He was sent instead to Sachsenhausen concentration camp from where he tunnelled his way out, only to be caught again after 14 days on the run.
He was the second pilot of a Wellington bomber shot down south of Rotterdam in June 1940. Initially hopeful that German security would not be too tight, the Netherlands having been overrun only in May, he planned to acquire a boat to sail back to England, or at least get him far enough from the coast to be picked up. A Dutch farmer gave him food and shelter but for one night only as his presence was certain to become known: the local police arrested him before he could move on.
After routine interrogation by Luftwaffe intelligence officers and the Gestapo, he began his life as a prisoner in Stalag Luft I at Barth on the Baltic. This seemed ideal for boarding a neutral merchant vessel to Sweden, but the tunnel through which James and others dug to get out of the camp was discovered by a sentry on the night of the escape before it was his turn to go through.
A year later, in September 1941, he and a fellow prisoner dug a tunnel from an incinerator to a point beyond the perimeter and made detailed plans to walk to Sassnitz and take the ferry to Sweden. Unfortunately, although the pair snatched the opportunity of the camp lighting failing unexpectedly to crawl from their hut to the incinerator, a prowler sentry appeared as James was about to move from under the hut. His companion got clean away and reached home via Sweden.
Although involved in several other escape plans, none reached fruition before he was moved to Stalag Luft III at Sagan in Silesia.
In January 1944 he joined the group in Stalag Luft III planning what eventually became the Great Escape through a 365-foot tunnel nicknamed “Harry”. (“Tom” and “Dick” had been put on hold as Harry seemed more promising and demanded a large work force). Harry had been partly dug some months previously but closed when many of those working on it were moved to Poland. It had a vertical shaft below a stove platform in one of the huts, and James was put in charge of a team dispersing the sand dug from the tunnel at night by placing it in the space under the camp theatre.
After several alarms and near-discovery the tunnel was completed to the exit point in a wood beyond the perimeter wire and no fewer than 200 camp inmates were selected to make the break attempt on the night of March 24. The first 30 were chosen by the escape committee because they spoke fluent German and so had the best chance of making a “home run”. The next 70 were chosen from those who had worked on the tunnel, and the final 100 were names taken from a hat of 500 volunteers.
James was allocated place number 39. His plan was to join a group of 12 who, with papers indicating they were foreign workers at a local wood mill going home on leave, would travel the first leg of their journey by train, heading for Czechoslovakia where they hoped to make contact with the local resistance. All went well for them until, having made one successful train journey, they attempted another only to be arrested at the station by police alerted by the mass escape. A sentry had stumbled on the mouth of the escape shaft at 5am on March 25, by when 76 officers had got away. At first Hitler ordered all those recaptured to be shot but allegedly due to pressure from Goering, who feared reprisals against Luftwaffe prisoners in Allied hands, the order was changed to “more than half to be shot”.
Of the 76 who escaped, three — a Dutchman and two Norwegians — reached freedom, the rest were recaptured. Fifty were executed, 15 returned to Stalag Luft III and eight, James among them, sent to Sachsenhausen concentration camp, after the Gestapo had interrogated him about the escape at its infamous Albrechtstrasse headquarters in Berlin. On arrival in Sachsenhausen, 17 miles north of Berlin, he met up with the other seven who had escaped from Stalag Luft III. They were not put in the main compound of the camp but in a Sonderlager (special camp) along one side. To their surprise, this lent itself to construction of a tunnel from below the corner of a hut a mere 120 feet to a point beyond the outer wire fence.
Using a table knife with a serrated edge, James and Flight Lieutenant Sydney Dowse dug the tunnel while the rest of the group kept watch. They were joined by Lieutenant-Colonel John “Mad Jack” Churchill, captured during a commando raid on the Dalmatian island of Brac, whom the Germans suspected of being related to the Prime Minister. By the second week of September 1944, the tunnel had reached the point for the exit shaft to be made. It was decided that six officers would escape in pairs, Jack Churchill and James travelling together.
The breakout was made on the night of September 23. Churchill led the way northwards to the Berlin-Rostock railway, which they followed on foot for three successive nights before jumping a goods train bound for Neustrelitz. After two nights’ rest in woods, eating vegetables taken from a station garden, they continued on foot along the railway until bumping into a group of Russian prisoners. Fed by the Russians, the pair continued on foot for eight more days until they were captured while sleeping by three members of the Volksturm — the German equivalent of the Home Guard. They were back in Sachsenhausen by the next day — locked in the Zellenbau cell block, regarded as death row, where they stayed until February 1945.
The final saga of Jimmy James’s war involved a laborious journey with other hostage-prisoners via Flossenbürg and Dachau concentration camps to the Austrian Tyrol, where they were finally liberated by the American Army on May 3, 1945.
Bertram Arthur James was born in India where his father was a tea-planter. He was educated at King’s School, Canterbury, and worked in British Columbia from 1934 until volunteering for flying training with the RAF in 1939. He was awarded the MC and mentioned in dispatches for his escape attempts.
Granted a regular commission in the RAF he retired as a squadron leader in 1958. He was the general-secretary of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office-sponsored Great Britain-USSR Association, until joining the Diplomatic Service in 1964. He held posts in Africa, Western and Eastern Europe and London. He retired in 1975, when he visited Sachsenhausen with Jack Churchill and other survivors. He served as the British representative on the International Sachsenhausen Committee until shortly before his death.
He is survived by his wife, Madge, whom he married in 1946. Their son predeceased him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOPICS: Culture/Society; Germany; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: greatescape; obituary; raf; veteran; wwii
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Times Online ^ | 1/18/08
Posted on 01/18/2008 1:32:02 PM PST by Borges
RAF pilot who was awarded the Military Cross for his part in the Great Escape from Stalag Luft III
“Jimmy” James was one of 76 officers who escaped from Stalag Luft III on the night of March 24, 1944, and was fortunate not to be among the 50 executed on Hitler’s order on recapture. He was sent instead to Sachsenhausen concentration camp from where he tunnelled his way out, only to be caught again after 14 days on the run.
He was the second pilot of a Wellington bomber shot down south of Rotterdam in June 1940. Initially hopeful that German security would not be too tight, the Netherlands having been overrun only in May, he planned to acquire a boat to sail back to England, or at least get him far enough from the coast to be picked up. A Dutch farmer gave him food and shelter but for one night only as his presence was certain to become known: the local police arrested him before he could move on.
After routine interrogation by Luftwaffe intelligence officers and the Gestapo, he began his life as a prisoner in Stalag Luft I at Barth on the Baltic. This seemed ideal for boarding a neutral merchant vessel to Sweden, but the tunnel through which James and others dug to get out of the camp was discovered by a sentry on the night of the escape before it was his turn to go through.
A year later, in September 1941, he and a fellow prisoner dug a tunnel from an incinerator to a point beyond the perimeter and made detailed plans to walk to Sassnitz and take the ferry to Sweden. Unfortunately, although the pair snatched the opportunity of the camp lighting failing unexpectedly to crawl from their hut to the incinerator, a prowler sentry appeared as James was about to move from under the hut. His companion got clean away and reached home via Sweden.
Although involved in several other escape plans, none reached fruition before he was moved to Stalag Luft III at Sagan in Silesia.
In January 1944 he joined the group in Stalag Luft III planning what eventually became the Great Escape through a 365-foot tunnel nicknamed “Harry”. (“Tom” and “Dick” had been put on hold as Harry seemed more promising and demanded a large work force). Harry had been partly dug some months previously but closed when many of those working on it were moved to Poland. It had a vertical shaft below a stove platform in one of the huts, and James was put in charge of a team dispersing the sand dug from the tunnel at night by placing it in the space under the camp theatre.
After several alarms and near-discovery the tunnel was completed to the exit point in a wood beyond the perimeter wire and no fewer than 200 camp inmates were selected to make the break attempt on the night of March 24. The first 30 were chosen by the escape committee because they spoke fluent German and so had the best chance of making a “home run”. The next 70 were chosen from those who had worked on the tunnel, and the final 100 were names taken from a hat of 500 volunteers.
James was allocated place number 39. His plan was to join a group of 12 who, with papers indicating they were foreign workers at a local wood mill going home on leave, would travel the first leg of their journey by train, heading for Czechoslovakia where they hoped to make contact with the local resistance. All went well for them until, having made one successful train journey, they attempted another only to be arrested at the station by police alerted by the mass escape. A sentry had stumbled on the mouth of the escape shaft at 5am on March 25, by when 76 officers had got away. At first Hitler ordered all those recaptured to be shot but allegedly due to pressure from Goering, who feared reprisals against Luftwaffe prisoners in Allied hands, the order was changed to “more than half to be shot”.
Of the 76 who escaped, three — a Dutchman and two Norwegians — reached freedom, the rest were recaptured. Fifty were executed, 15 returned to Stalag Luft III and eight, James among them, sent to Sachsenhausen concentration camp, after the Gestapo had interrogated him about the escape at its infamous Albrechtstrasse headquarters in Berlin. On arrival in Sachsenhausen, 17 miles north of Berlin, he met up with the other seven who had escaped from Stalag Luft III. They were not put in the main compound of the camp but in a Sonderlager (special camp) along one side. To their surprise, this lent itself to construction of a tunnel from below the corner of a hut a mere 120 feet to a point beyond the outer wire fence.
Using a table knife with a serrated edge, James and Flight Lieutenant Sydney Dowse dug the tunnel while the rest of the group kept watch. They were joined by Lieutenant-Colonel John “Mad Jack” Churchill, captured during a commando raid on the Dalmatian island of Brac, whom the Germans suspected of being related to the Prime Minister. By the second week of September 1944, the tunnel had reached the point for the exit shaft to be made. It was decided that six officers would escape in pairs, Jack Churchill and James travelling together.
The breakout was made on the night of September 23. Churchill led the way northwards to the Berlin-Rostock railway, which they followed on foot for three successive nights before jumping a goods train bound for Neustrelitz. After two nights’ rest in woods, eating vegetables taken from a station garden, they continued on foot along the railway until bumping into a group of Russian prisoners. Fed by the Russians, the pair continued on foot for eight more days until they were captured while sleeping by three members of the Volksturm — the German equivalent of the Home Guard. They were back in Sachsenhausen by the next day — locked in the Zellenbau cell block, regarded as death row, where they stayed until February 1945.
The final saga of Jimmy James’s war involved a laborious journey with other hostage-prisoners via Flossenbürg and Dachau concentration camps to the Austrian Tyrol, where they were finally liberated by the American Army on May 3, 1945.
Bertram Arthur James was born in India where his father was a tea-planter. He was educated at King’s School, Canterbury, and worked in British Columbia from 1934 until volunteering for flying training with the RAF in 1939. He was awarded the MC and mentioned in dispatches for his escape attempts.
Granted a regular commission in the RAF he retired as a squadron leader in 1958. He was the general-secretary of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office-sponsored Great Britain-USSR Association, until joining the Diplomatic Service in 1964. He held posts in Africa, Western and Eastern Europe and London. He retired in 1975, when he visited Sachsenhausen with Jack Churchill and other survivors. He served as the British representative on the International Sachsenhausen Committee until shortly before his death.
He is survived by his wife, Madge, whom he married in 1946. Their son predeceased him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOPICS: Culture/Society; Germany; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: greatescape; obituary; raf; veteran; wwii
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cagey
Well-known member
Incredible, Hero hardly describes his actions. My grandad 1st ww my dad 2nd ww had and have their memories and it is obvious that a lot is hidden behind the gentle answers to my questions. We owe a lot.
Crimewatch is on telly now and the scumbags displayed there make you wonder if their sacrifice has been rewarded
Crimewatch is on telly now and the scumbags displayed there make you wonder if their sacrifice has been rewarded
reginaldon
New member
Sadly now there are few left of a great breed. Patriotism, duty integity and sheer guts are rare commodities today.
Alfie168
Well-known member
The tank commander who pulled my dad out of their burning Sherman got the MC for his bravery and selflessness that day. Sadly he was unable to reach the driver and co driver.
I used to accompany my dad to his regimental reunion in the last years of his life. There I met this elderly and absolutely typical gentle English clergyman who had been their regimental padre in Normandy in his youth..then I read what he did for his men in both life and death on the battlefield in a soft skinned vehicle, quite liable to be destroyed at any given time...and suddenly the 'more tea vicar' jokes seem a bit flat, and you gain a deep and everlasting respect for the man.
When I used to parachute near Bridlington we were piloted now and again by fighter ace Ginger Lacey who lived at Flamborough...He could be a bit irrascible if you fidgeted around in the back..upsetting the trim of the Cessna. I was quite happy for him to be as irrascible as he chose, given what he had done to defend our country.
Tim
I used to accompany my dad to his regimental reunion in the last years of his life. There I met this elderly and absolutely typical gentle English clergyman who had been their regimental padre in Normandy in his youth..then I read what he did for his men in both life and death on the battlefield in a soft skinned vehicle, quite liable to be destroyed at any given time...and suddenly the 'more tea vicar' jokes seem a bit flat, and you gain a deep and everlasting respect for the man.
When I used to parachute near Bridlington we were piloted now and again by fighter ace Ginger Lacey who lived at Flamborough...He could be a bit irrascible if you fidgeted around in the back..upsetting the trim of the Cessna. I was quite happy for him to be as irrascible as he chose, given what he had done to defend our country.
Tim
Alfie168
Well-known member
Sorry.,,my dad's rescuer got the MM not the MC...technical error.
Tim
Tim
thurloo
New member
sorry mate but i disagree . dont you keep up with news . we still have our young ones fighting for our country . in places far from home dont here them complaining much . just getting on with it . and if they get caught just thi nk what they would have to go though.
weaver_fish
Member
Interesting point. The actions of those serving in Iraq and Afghanistan contain similar levels of heroism (if that's the word). Of course in WW2 there were also scumbags (which is the word) who robbed, mugged and made profits out of others' misery. There are some fascinating accounts of how criminals operated within the blackout their advantage.... no crimewatch then to report it and criminal and anti-social activity in WWII has been airbrushed out of most histories. Plus ca change....
graham
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly now there are few left of a great breed. Patriotism, duty integity and sheer guts are rare commodities today.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe not as rare as you may think.Take Cpl Coult MC for example.
"Unmarried Cpl Coult, who joined the Royal Irish in 1994, then went back into the killing zone to cover a stalled vehicle and enable them to escape.
Part of his award citation reads: "Throughout this complex and well prepared insurgent ambush, Coult returned proportional, justified and accurate fire, remaining totally focused and acted in a considered, professional and courageous manner."
His commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Michael McGovern, described the corporal as an "outstanding young man whose courage, leadership and composure under enemy fire and in extremely difficult conditions has justifiably been rewarded".
Lt Col McGovern himself receives the Queen's Commendation for valuable service in Iraq.
In all, 64 UK servicemen and women stationed across the world have received awards for bravery and service during the six months to March this year."
Made in the same mould as Sqn Ldr Jimmy James MC perhaps?
Sadly now there are few left of a great breed. Patriotism, duty integity and sheer guts are rare commodities today.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe not as rare as you may think.Take Cpl Coult MC for example.
"Unmarried Cpl Coult, who joined the Royal Irish in 1994, then went back into the killing zone to cover a stalled vehicle and enable them to escape.
Part of his award citation reads: "Throughout this complex and well prepared insurgent ambush, Coult returned proportional, justified and accurate fire, remaining totally focused and acted in a considered, professional and courageous manner."
His commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Michael McGovern, described the corporal as an "outstanding young man whose courage, leadership and composure under enemy fire and in extremely difficult conditions has justifiably been rewarded".
Lt Col McGovern himself receives the Queen's Commendation for valuable service in Iraq.
In all, 64 UK servicemen and women stationed across the world have received awards for bravery and service during the six months to March this year."
Made in the same mould as Sqn Ldr Jimmy James MC perhaps?
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
The tank commander who pulled my dad out of their burning Sherman got the MC for his bravery and selflessness that day. Sadly he was unable to reach the driver and co driver.
I used to accompany my dad to his regimental reunion in the last years of his life. There I met this elderly and absolutely typical gentle English clergyman who had been their regimental padre in Normandy in his youth..then I read what he did for his men in both life and death on the battlefield in a soft skinned vehicle, quite liable to be destroyed at any given time...and suddenly the 'more tea vicar' jokes seem a bit flat, and you gain a deep and everlasting respect for the man.
When I used to parachute near Bridlington we were piloted now and again by fighter ace Ginger Lacey who lived at Flamborough...He could be a bit irrascible if you fidgeted around in the back..upsetting the trim of the Cessna. I was quite happy for him to be as irrascible as he chose, given what he had done to defend our country.
Tim
[/ QUOTE ]Was that Padre Skinner I wonder. If it was, my friend's dad was in the same unit at the same time. My step father was on the next beach on D-Day - second wave in at 0630 - except they were all held up and it was a bit of a mess.
The tank commander who pulled my dad out of their burning Sherman got the MC for his bravery and selflessness that day. Sadly he was unable to reach the driver and co driver.
I used to accompany my dad to his regimental reunion in the last years of his life. There I met this elderly and absolutely typical gentle English clergyman who had been their regimental padre in Normandy in his youth..then I read what he did for his men in both life and death on the battlefield in a soft skinned vehicle, quite liable to be destroyed at any given time...and suddenly the 'more tea vicar' jokes seem a bit flat, and you gain a deep and everlasting respect for the man.
When I used to parachute near Bridlington we were piloted now and again by fighter ace Ginger Lacey who lived at Flamborough...He could be a bit irrascible if you fidgeted around in the back..upsetting the trim of the Cessna. I was quite happy for him to be as irrascible as he chose, given what he had done to defend our country.
Tim
[/ QUOTE ]Was that Padre Skinner I wonder. If it was, my friend's dad was in the same unit at the same time. My step father was on the next beach on D-Day - second wave in at 0630 - except they were all held up and it was a bit of a mess.
jhr
Well-known member
What is it about Vicars? IIRC, Robert Runcie (ex AB of C) was a tank commander during the WW II, and won the Military Cross. I suspect that it may have been his experience of war that led him (and maybe the guy referred to above) to the priesthood in the first place.
tazzle
New member
[ QUOTE ]
My step father was on the next beach on D-Day - second wave in at 0630 - except they were all held up and it was a bit of a mess.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where was that? My old man was with 9th Brigade, 3rd Inf Div and was with the first wave to land on 'Sword'
My step father was on the next beach on D-Day - second wave in at 0630 - except they were all held up and it was a bit of a mess.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where was that? My old man was with 9th Brigade, 3rd Inf Div and was with the first wave to land on 'Sword'
Alfie168
Well-known member
John Morris says
"Was that Padre Skinner I wonder. If it was, my friend's dad was in the same unit at the same time. My step father was on the next beach on D-Day - second wave in at 0630 - except they were all held up and it was a bit of a mess.
My dad's regiment was the 24th Lancers..supposed to land on D day, but there was a big incident on the beach and the beachmasters would not let them land, so they spent the night on the Rhino pontoon with four tanks & support vehicle moored alongside a ship. They landed uneventfully on the morning of the 7th at La Riviere. Incidentally the American LCT captain had intended dropping them six miles offshore. The same man who won the MM rescuing my dad had to draw his pistol to persuade the captain to drop them 2.5 miles offshore instead.......
The padre was Mark Green, now a retired Bishop. Lovely feller.
Tim
"Was that Padre Skinner I wonder. If it was, my friend's dad was in the same unit at the same time. My step father was on the next beach on D-Day - second wave in at 0630 - except they were all held up and it was a bit of a mess.
My dad's regiment was the 24th Lancers..supposed to land on D day, but there was a big incident on the beach and the beachmasters would not let them land, so they spent the night on the Rhino pontoon with four tanks & support vehicle moored alongside a ship. They landed uneventfully on the morning of the 7th at La Riviere. Incidentally the American LCT captain had intended dropping them six miles offshore. The same man who won the MM rescuing my dad had to draw his pistol to persuade the captain to drop them 2.5 miles offshore instead.......
The padre was Mark Green, now a retired Bishop. Lovely feller.
Tim
sailorman
Well-known member
most are fighting for bliar / bush not Great Britian, imho
PuffTheMagicDragon
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
most are fighting for bliar / bush not Great Britian, imho
[/ QUOTE ]
I would say that most of them chose to put themselves into a potentially dangerous employment, with the attendant risk of political idiots deciding that they have to proceed to a situation where they stand in manifest danger of being killed or having to kill others. No one forced them.
I wonder: If I were to take up dancing with wolves and I get bitten, would anyone call me a hero?
most are fighting for bliar / bush not Great Britian, imho
[/ QUOTE ]
I would say that most of them chose to put themselves into a potentially dangerous employment, with the attendant risk of political idiots deciding that they have to proceed to a situation where they stand in manifest danger of being killed or having to kill others. No one forced them.
I wonder: If I were to take up dancing with wolves and I get bitten, would anyone call me a hero?
Endeavourquay
New member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
most are fighting for bliar / bush not Great Britian, imho
[/ QUOTE ]
I would say that most of them chose to put themselves into a potentially dangerous employment, with the attendant risk of political idiots deciding that they have to proceed to a situation where they stand in manifest danger of being killed or having to kill others. No one forced them.
I wonder: If I were to take up dancing with wolves and I get bitten, would anyone call me a hero?
[/ QUOTE ]
You have to remember the tender age that the squadies join up, sorry, but all the young lads that have grown up alongside my son and have joined up, did so to serve their country whilst getting a good training and a trade for the future, they thought nothing of politics, they didnt go to university and other hotbeds of political education, just simply young lads, trusting the people who send them.
We, the adults are the ones who can make the necessary political changes that might keep our army safe
[ QUOTE ]
most are fighting for bliar / bush not Great Britian, imho
[/ QUOTE ]
I would say that most of them chose to put themselves into a potentially dangerous employment, with the attendant risk of political idiots deciding that they have to proceed to a situation where they stand in manifest danger of being killed or having to kill others. No one forced them.
I wonder: If I were to take up dancing with wolves and I get bitten, would anyone call me a hero?
[/ QUOTE ]
You have to remember the tender age that the squadies join up, sorry, but all the young lads that have grown up alongside my son and have joined up, did so to serve their country whilst getting a good training and a trade for the future, they thought nothing of politics, they didnt go to university and other hotbeds of political education, just simply young lads, trusting the people who send them.
We, the adults are the ones who can make the necessary political changes that might keep our army safe
PuffTheMagicDragon
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
You have to remember the tender age that the squadies join up, sorry, but all the young lads that have grown up alongside my son and have joined up, did so to serve their country whilst getting a good training and a trade for the future, they thought nothing of politics, they didnt go to university and other hotbeds of political education, just simply young lads, trusting the people who send them.
We, the adults are the ones who can make the necessary political changes that might keep our army safe
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but they did make a choice in joining, and unfortunately [/i]did not fully appreciate the possible consequences.[/i]
Both my offspring went to University, both here and in your country, but they grew up hearing about how back in the sixties we campaigned against war. I think that the original poster is still impressed with the stories that he attributes to his father and his grandfather. Rather than eulogising armed conflict, I always showed my kids photos of the destruction that happened in my country when it was dragged into someone else's war by the armed forces that occupied it then. I felt sorry that my grandfather was blinded in WW1 - but it was he who had joined up when he could have stayed on working at a boatyard (shipyard?) in Cowes. It is even worse when there is conscription.
I agree that "We, the adults are the ones who can make the necessary political changes that might keep our army safe".
In this country we made damn sure that neutrality is embedded into our constitution. Even when we joined the EU, it had to be spelled out that neutrality and non-alignment would not be affected. Members of the Armed Forces may ask for permission to join a European multi-nation force, but only as volunteers. There is no way that our government can decide to play pocket-dog to a half-wit from Texas; the Constitution simply does not allow it.
Like in the words of a song from Woodstock, I have no wish to "..be the first one on the block to have (my) son sent home in a box!"
I tried to keep out of this thread, but I fervently believe that there is no such thing as a justified war.
You have to remember the tender age that the squadies join up, sorry, but all the young lads that have grown up alongside my son and have joined up, did so to serve their country whilst getting a good training and a trade for the future, they thought nothing of politics, they didnt go to university and other hotbeds of political education, just simply young lads, trusting the people who send them.
We, the adults are the ones who can make the necessary political changes that might keep our army safe
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but they did make a choice in joining, and unfortunately [/i]did not fully appreciate the possible consequences.[/i]
Both my offspring went to University, both here and in your country, but they grew up hearing about how back in the sixties we campaigned against war. I think that the original poster is still impressed with the stories that he attributes to his father and his grandfather. Rather than eulogising armed conflict, I always showed my kids photos of the destruction that happened in my country when it was dragged into someone else's war by the armed forces that occupied it then. I felt sorry that my grandfather was blinded in WW1 - but it was he who had joined up when he could have stayed on working at a boatyard (shipyard?) in Cowes. It is even worse when there is conscription.
I agree that "We, the adults are the ones who can make the necessary political changes that might keep our army safe".
In this country we made damn sure that neutrality is embedded into our constitution. Even when we joined the EU, it had to be spelled out that neutrality and non-alignment would not be affected. Members of the Armed Forces may ask for permission to join a European multi-nation force, but only as volunteers. There is no way that our government can decide to play pocket-dog to a half-wit from Texas; the Constitution simply does not allow it.
Like in the words of a song from Woodstock, I have no wish to "..be the first one on the block to have (my) son sent home in a box!"
I tried to keep out of this thread, but I fervently believe that there is no such thing as a justified war.
Cornishman
New member
[ QUOTE ]
but they grew up hearing about how back in the sixties we campaigned against war.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who did? I was a soldier through the fifties and sixties and recruitment into the British Army (by then an all volunteer force) had never been better. We used to laugh at the longhairs who seemed to us to be a ragtag bunch in need of a good bath and a haircut.
but they grew up hearing about how back in the sixties we campaigned against war.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who did? I was a soldier through the fifties and sixties and recruitment into the British Army (by then an all volunteer force) had never been better. We used to laugh at the longhairs who seemed to us to be a ragtag bunch in need of a good bath and a haircut.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
We used to laugh at the longhairs who seemed to us to be a ragtag bunch in need of a good bath and a haircut.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then we must have been better mannered. We did not laugh at the poor sods who were drafted and packed off to Vietnam. We pitied them because they were not, like you seem to have been, volunteers.
We used to laugh at the longhairs who seemed to us to be a ragtag bunch in need of a good bath and a haircut.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then we must have been better mannered. We did not laugh at the poor sods who were drafted and packed off to Vietnam. We pitied them because they were not, like you seem to have been, volunteers.
reginaldon
New member
I tried to keep out of this thread, but I fervently believe that there is no such thing as a justified war.
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I believe very few are, but if you had lived thro' WWII and realised what was at stake, you might have had a different point of view - remember what happened to many of our European neighbours who were firm neutralsand what would have happened to us if we had followed thelead of some of our politicians and the king from whom were were saved by Mrs Simpson.
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I believe very few are, but if you had lived thro' WWII and realised what was at stake, you might have had a different point of view - remember what happened to many of our European neighbours who were firm neutralsand what would have happened to us if we had followed thelead of some of our politicians and the king from whom were were saved by Mrs Simpson.
