Qualifications required for using a powerboat for paying guests

Fr J Hackett

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I works in an industry that has potential to obliterate whole cities let along individual deaths. So I appreciate and support rules / regs to safeguard people and property.

When it comes to boating ... I'm sorry - but I do not believe there has been such a marked change as other poster is suggesting. I agree that more boats are out there - but I would also suggest that more idiots have 'incidents' that go unreported ...
Over here - to have anything other than a dinghy - you have an exam ... great - but you should see some of the 'incidents' ... idiots are idiots .. and we have a fair share of them over here.
He suggests look at the records compared to 40yrs ago ... having looked - I haven't found such records .. only suggestive unofficial.
You are missing the difference between legislation for professional activity and recreational activity which are very different although with people and society becoming more litigious the end results for those involved begin to coalesce.
 

oldmanofthehills

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I works in an industry that has potential to obliterate whole cities let along individual deaths. So I appreciate and support rules / regs to safeguard people and property.

When it comes to boating ... I'm sorry - but I do not believe there has been such a marked change as other poster is suggesting. I agree that more boats are out there - but I would also suggest that more idiots have 'incidents' that go unreported ...
Over here - to have anything other than a dinghy - you have an exam ... great - but you should see some of the 'incidents' ... idiots are idiots .. and we have a fair share of them over here.
He suggests look at the records compared to 40yrs ago ... having looked - I haven't found such records .. only suggestive unofficial.
Sensible regulation is what i suggested as needed. I am pretty sure the OP is competent and the risk duration low but how can isurers be certain.

The have been fairly recent deaths in ribs from poorly managed commercial ventures, and holings or sinkings on commercial pleasure trips, so some controls still wanting
 

AllWinds

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You are missing the difference between legislation for professional activity and recreational activity which are very different although with people and society becoming more litigious the end results for those involved begin to coalesce.
I think Refuelers point is still valid. Overreliance on certification means people pass the exams and don't necessarily gain the required experience. In real the real world experience will always trump certification, but the lawyers and insurance companies will consider the certification more important.

A case in point. I've sailed for over 35 years. I've held the highest levels of instructor qualification for windsurfing, sailing (dinghy/dayboat) and powerboating. In the UK and Ireland I never needed the certification for personal use, but only for taking paying customers on the water. Subsequently, I've moved to Switzerland. Here you can not sail or drive a motorboat without the local qualification and they will not accept UK or Ireland qualifications of any sort. So I did the local qualifications. My practical part of my keelboat sailing exam here was easier than the RYA Level Dinghy/Dayboat 2 assessment and that actually allows me to take paying guests!!!

So last night I was out with a couple of people who wanted to go sailing. One had no certifications but had sailed a few times in the past on a few different boats. The other started sailing this year, did a three week Skippers Course in Croatia and is qualified to charter a boat in the Med (probably even further afield) The guy with the cert could not sail. I was literally teaching him the basics of boat control. The woman who "has sailed a few times" actually had a bit of a feel for what was going on.

Which one would I trust to go sailing with in the future? The one with no certification or the one who has some sort of skippers ticket!?
 

billskip

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Which one would I trust to go sailing with in the future? The one with no certification or the one who has some sort of skippers ticket!?
Trouble is there doesn't seem to be any control over issuing pass certificates to some of the courses...OK in the UK one doesn't need any ticket for Private pleasure...but once you go comercial it's controlled....
A schools will want recommendation with high pass rates...not a "don't go there they are too strict "...
 

ylop

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I think Refuelers point is still valid. Overreliance on certification means people pass the exams and don't necessarily gain the required experience. In real the real world experience will always trump certification, but the lawyers and insurance companies will consider the certification more important.
Regulators and accident investigators are quite critical of vessel operators who accept bits of paper without a wider assessment of competence. I don't know how well that message has been absorbed by operators but I think its probably wrong to say lawyers and insurance companies will consider certification more important - they will robustly question why any minimum entry level compliance was not achieved, but that doesn't mean they are saying "its ok if he just passed yesterday, give him the keys and tell him to make sure the passengers come back having had fun". Imagine our attitudes if someone was driving a car with no license - but its ok because they've actually been driving for years on private roads / farm etc and built up more experience that someone who just past their test! or if someone was driving a bus without the bus liceense - but actually he's been driving big vans the same size for 30 years and so has load of experience - compared to someone at 21 who just passed their bus test!

Refuellers equivalent is not having a license for a minibus for paid work (anyone passing test since ~1997), and being asked if you would mind just taking using the minibus to shuttle people from the hotel to the train station 10 minutes away.
 

ylop

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Wrong in this case.

The Mobile Co could show the collection due to Uber ...

My phone is unlimited as I travel on business ... I do not cap the bill because I travel to many different countries such as China as well as many others ..

I don't give a monkeys to be honest if you or others believe it or not ... just hope you remember I told you - if you go to Geneva and fall foul of it. Maybe it no longer applies - I don't know - I hope its changed .. but I will not test to find out. 'Conventional' Taxi in Geneva is my way now.

As I say - no other area has done that to my bill ...
I regularly travel in Geneva, Basel and Zurich. Most trips I've taken an Uber. I've never had an extra cost on my Vodafone bill, either before the EU rules meant roaming in Europe was no extra cost, during that time, or since the UK let the mobile companies shaft us again since the B word.

I've just checked the mobile data usage by app on my phone (I'm not sure what the time period is):
1. Biggest use is actually hot-spotting - because my laptop has no awareness its on a mobile connection and no manners!
2,3,4. Facebook, Safari, Teams all use roughly the same amount of data (15-20GB). I don't use f/b that much but lots of video.
5. Then its the phones own services (ie. talking to Apple servers etc) (12GB)
6. X uses 1/2 of that. (7GB). I'm not a major user.
7.Google maps 5GB - used a lot on data rather than wifi.
8,9,10 Chrome, Apple maps, Youtube (4GB)
19 Gmail (1 GB)
27 What's app (0.4GB)
35 Rheinbahn app (0.19GB)
40 Uber (0.15GB)

So Uber, used all over the world had used less that the geman trains app that I've used for one week!

I turned off Wifi and then went into the Uber app and had a good play around looking at available cabs, making sure to use the map you said was the issue, as well as explore some menus on uber eats. That added another 20MB (0.02GB) to the total; I haven't used uber at all this month so don't know what updates its doing. Its quite a lot but its not £800 bill worth.

I know I won't convince you that you have been misled, but if you are scaring others off using it for the wrong reasons I think its quite right to call that out. It is quite right to highlight that apps can and do move a lot of data and if you are on roaming charges you might want to consider that - your OS will let you turn that on and off for individual apps. Good apps let you decide on specific types of data inside the app.
 

ylop

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Trouble is there doesn't seem to be any control over issuing pass certificates to some of the courses...OK in the UK one doesn't need any ticket for Private pleasure...but once you go comercial it's controlled....
A schools will want recommendation with high pass rates...not a "don't go there they are too strict "...
For the most serious of the commercially endorsable qualification the school and the examiner are not the same person. That's not true of PB2 - but limits you to 3 miles from a nominated departure point in good conditions. I doubt there's many people around with a Commercially Endorsed PB2 who couldn't pass an independent test if they wanted to - doesn't mean that that drive that way when nobody is watching. We don't have a huge issue with qualified buy clueless people causing accidents do we?
 

38mess

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I think Refuelers point is still valid. Overreliance on certification means people pass the exams and don't necessarily gain the required experience. In real the real world experience will always trump certification, but the lawyers and insurance companies will consider the certification more important.

A case in point. I've sailed for over 35 years. I've held the highest levels of instructor qualification for windsurfing, sailing (dinghy/dayboat) and powerboating. In the UK and Ireland I never needed the certification for personal use, but only for taking paying customers on the water. Subsequently, I've moved to Switzerland. Here you can not sail or drive a motorboat without the local qualification and they will not accept UK or Ireland qualifications of any sort. So I did the local qualifications. My practical part of my keelboat sailing exam here was easier than the RYA Level Dinghy/Dayboat 2 assessment and that actually allows me to take paying guests!!!

So last night I was out with a couple of people who wanted to go sailing. One had no certifications but had sailed a few times in the past on a few different boats. The other started sailing this year, did a three week Skippers Course in Croatia and is qualified to charter a boat in the Med (probably even further afield) The guy with the cert could not sail. I was literally teaching him the basics of boat control. The woman who "has sailed a few times" actually had a bit of a feel for what was going on.

Which one would I trust to go sailing with in the future? The one with no certification or the one who has some sort of skippers ticket!?
There was an old saying 'be wary of people with bits of paper' well in this neck of the woods there was...I can see your point, but when I went into sailing I needed a lot of sea miles before I could take my Yacht master, also people need sea miles before they can officially take pb2 . When I did my advanced power boat course around ten years ago I need lots of sea time before I could take the course including night passages.
 

Refueler

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Regulators and accident investigators are quite critical of vessel operators who accept bits of paper without a wider assessment of competence. I don't know how well that message has been absorbed by operators but I think its probably wrong to say lawyers and insurance companies will consider certification more important - they will robustly question why any minimum entry level compliance was not achieved, but that doesn't mean they are saying "its ok if he just passed yesterday, give him the keys and tell him to make sure the passengers come back having had fun". Imagine our attitudes if someone was driving a car with no license - but its ok because they've actually been driving for years on private roads / farm etc and built up more experience that someone who just past their test! or if someone was driving a bus without the bus liceense - but actually he's been driving big vans the same size for 30 years and so has load of experience - compared to someone at 21 who just passed their bus test!

I was taught to drive 30 ton articulated trucks when I was a young teenager ... basically a friend of my Mother was a Transport Manager and offered me chance to be 'drivers mate' outside school hours. I still today have that skill and can back trailers / caravans etc. behind my cars all day long .. but I have no HGV licence - just the LGV that was given me in 1973 automatically as part of the standard driving licence ... I do not drive more than legally allowed on the road.

Refuellers equivalent is not having a license for a minibus for paid work (anyone passing test since ~1997), and being asked if you would mind just taking using the minibus to shuttle people from the hotel to the train station 10 minutes away.

Taking the full technical aspect - of course that's right - bit extrapolating what I actually said though. Basically OP is talking 4 - 6 people .. last time I checked - a standard driving licence in UK allowed you to drive a passenger vehicle of more than 6 people .. is it max 12 ? Long time since I looked. PSV comes in at 12 ?
One of the reasons Minibuses came about was because not only being smaller and getting to places normal buses could not - but also the driving licence reqt's.
 

Refueler

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There was an old saying 'be wary of people with bits of paper' well in this neck of the woods there was...I can see your point, but when I went into sailing I needed a lot of sea miles before I could take my Yacht master, also people need sea miles before they can officially take pb2 . When I did my advanced power boat course around ten years ago I need lots of sea time before I could take the course including night passages.

I've signed a number of Logbooks of people doing RYA courses in UK .... basically anyone who sailed on my boats and were looking to do courses and needed the sea-miles ... I would sign them off ... (this was some years ago and I wonder if its been changed ?)

I took all possible though to try have them learn or experience during it - not just sign for nothing. But I can see it too easy for someone to sign off another not really taking note if the person was 'worthy' of that signature.
 

st599

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a standard driving licence in UK allowed you to drive a passenger vehicle of more than 6 people .. is it max 12 ? Long time since I looked. PSV comes in at 12 ?
One of the reasons Minibuses came about was because not only being smaller and getting to places normal buses could not - but also the driving licence reqt's.
Not for a very long time
You'd need to have passed your test in 1996 to get that.
 

ylop

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ll technical aspect - of course that's right - bit extrapolating what I actually said though. Basically OP is talking 4 - 6 people .. last time I checked - a standard driving licence in UK allowed you to drive a passenger vehicle of more than 6 people .. is it max 12 ? Long time since I looked. PSV comes in at 12 ?
One of the reasons Minibuses came about was because not only being smaller and getting to places normal buses could not - but also the driving licence reqt's.
A minibus license (class D1) is required to drive a vehicle that is capable of carrying more than 9 people (8 pax + driver). Pre-97 license holders may have that entitlement, but post 97 will not. I chose that as an example because there is a weird distinction about who/why you are driving, essentially there are exemptions from the rules if you are driving for a voluntary organisation and the people are not paying. Its irrelevant how many people are actually being carried - could be 6 - if you are driving that for a "commercial purpose" you need the right license. (full PSV required for >16 pax). So would you say "its OK you wont get caught; you could move a dozen boy scouts and that would be legal" to someone in their late 30's who doesn't have a D1 on their license and needs to do a short trip with half a dozen people in a minibus. The rules might seem, might even be, stupid but the consequences of getting caught are not insignificant.
 

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Not for a very long time
You'd need to have passed your test in 1996 to get that.

Mine was 1973 .... and then swapped UK for Latvian licence when my Mother passed away, (I had no UK address) - keeping all grades except the 'italic' ones that were concessionary in UK only ... such as Tractor Driving ... but that's another story.
 

Refueler

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A minibus license (class D1) is required to drive a vehicle that is capable of carrying more than 9 people (8 pax + driver). Pre-97 license holders may have that entitlement, but post 97 will not. I chose that as an example because there is a weird distinction about who/why you are driving, essentially there are exemptions from the rules if you are driving for a voluntary organisation and the people are not paying. Its irrelevant how many people are actually being carried - could be 6 - if you are driving that for a "commercial purpose" you need the right license. (full PSV required for >16 pax). So would you say "its OK you wont get caught; you could move a dozen boy scouts and that would be legal" to someone in their late 30's who doesn't have a D1 on their license and needs to do a short trip with half a dozen people in a minibus. The rules might seem, might even be, stupid but the consequences of getting caught are not insignificant.

Read my post - I said - long time since etc. and stated I passed Driving Test in 1973 ...
 

ylop

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I've signed a number of Logbooks of people doing RYA courses in UK .... basically anyone who sailed on my boats and were looking to do courses and needed the sea-miles ... I would sign them off ... (this was some years ago and I wonder if its been changed ?)

I took all possible though to try have them learn or experience during it - not just sign for nothing. But I can see it too easy for someone to sign off another not really taking note if the person was 'worthy' of that signature.
There's no actual requirement for a signature - who would sign my logbook when I'm the skipper of my own boat! Examiners on here have said that they want to see a log of where / when / what etc - but it doesn't actually need signed, because they will ask people about the trips and soon know if they are bluffing. The signature is not saying anything other than you saw them do what it say - X hrs, Y miles, day/night, engine/sail - wind/conditions.

But your point is right - its entirely possible to do 100 days and 3000 NM (or whatever requirements they have) and learn nothing, or to do half that with some really great people on a wide variety of boats/places/situations and genuinely come away with a load of true experience. You could easily munch miles/days on a transatlantic crossing but virtually never have to deal with colregs, close quarters manoeuvres etc or do loads of coastal hopping on the same busy stretch of water and be a master of the warping and sproinging etc but never really have to worry about what happens if something breaks and you are 7 days motoring from anywhere with only 36hrs of fuel left! The log book is meant to be a clue to the examiner on where to ask/probe find possible weakness rather than the evidence itself. A log book always signed by the same skipper might be little more comfort than a self declared one.
 

ylop

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Mine was 1973 .... and then swapped UK for Latvian licence when my Mother passed away, (I had no UK address) - keeping all grades except the 'italic' ones that were concessionary in UK only ... such as Tractor Driving ... but that's another story.
The change in 97 was to align across Europe. I assume that means that new drivers in Latvia can't drive a minibus without an extra test either. I don't know if they have the weird "voluntary work" exemption - that was I think a UK special case.
 

Refueler

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The change in 97 was to align across Europe. I assume that means that new drivers in Latvia can't drive a minibus without an extra test either. I don't know if they have the weird "voluntary work" exemption - that was I think a UK special case.


There are differences - based on the EU guidelines ....

I have trailer - but anyone taking test here now does not have trailer - they have to take a separate test.

I can drive a Light Good Vehicle - but people here now can only drive a car on standard licence test.

Like I said - the only grades I lost was the Tractor (Agricultural) .... tracked vehicle .... some industrial electric stuff. These were on my UK licence in italics. It was not until I was handed the Latvian Licence that I found out they were National and not International. I think I also lost the up to 125cc motor cycle provisional or whatever it was ... when I rode Lambrettas - it was up to 250cc with a 1 year Prov ... renewable - but later I heard you coul;d only have one Prov licence ??

I would need to find my old paper UK licence to see all grades I lost - as the later card was taken by Latvians and sent back to UK for cancellation ... (I phoned DVLC and they said they don't care about Latvian reqt to cancel my UK licence - they said if I return to UK and resident again - they will return my original licence to me intact .. ).

My Latvian licence has : B ... C1 ... D1 ... BE .... C1E ... D1E ... DE ...

When I asked about the Tractor class .. I had a Belarus Tractor / Excavator at the time ... the reqts were :

1. To attend Latvian Language Class
2. Complete Theoretical Class - in Latvian - no English language
3. Complete Practical Class - in Latvian
4. Take test - all in Latvian ... approx 1/2 day duration.

I asked if I could do it in Russian language - near 80% of Latvia speaks Russian. Answer was absolutely not.

I sold the tractor !!
 
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AllWinds

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There's no actual requirement for a signature - who would sign my logbook when I'm the skipper of my own boat! Examiners on here have said that they want to see a log of where / when / what etc - but it doesn't actually need signed, because they will ask people about the trips and soon know if they are bluffing. The signature is not saying anything other than you saw them do what it say - X hrs, Y miles, day/night, engine/sail - wind/conditions.

But your point is right - its entirely possible to do 100 days and 3000 NM (or whatever requirements they have) and learn nothing, or to do half that with some really great people on a wide variety of boats/places/situations and genuinely come away with a load of true experience. You could easily munch miles/days on a transatlantic crossing but virtually never have to deal with colregs, close quarters manoeuvres etc or do loads of coastal hopping on the same busy stretch of water and be a master of the warping and sproinging etc but never really have to worry about what happens if something breaks and you are 7 days motoring from anywhere with only 36hrs of fuel left! The log book is meant to be a clue to the examiner on where to ask/probe find possible weakness rather than the evidence itself. A log book always signed by the same skipper might be little more comfort than a self declared one.
This is going quite off topic from the OP now, but still comes a bit back to the concept of certification and it's use.

Proper self signed miles might be better than miles signed by someone else when the person logging the miles just sat in the corner of the cockpit being seasick.

I've sailed most of my life, but never really logged anything. I've now got it into my head to do Yachtmaster Offshore (and get it commercially endorsed) so I've started logging my miles lately. Since I live in Switzerland and they won't accept my ICC, I thought since I was collecting miles anyway, I may as well do the Swiss certificate along the way (only 1000 miles required and can be on tidal or non-tidal waters). When I enquired they told me I could not use any of the miles I skipper myself. I can however sign my partner up for those miles as we usually sail together.

It gets even worse though. I could charter a boat in Ireland or the UK (or anywhere no certification is legally required) say she is the skipper and then have her sign a logbook for me and that would be accepted.

Point being that in many places it really is an exercise in box ticking rather than ensuring the skills are actually present. I accept commercial and private are a different kettle of fish, but the quality of instructors that I saw coming out of some of the zero to hero courses about 20 years ago was at times pretty shocking.

Having said that I do believe the RYA schemes are probably some of the best out there in terms of really trying to ensure that the candidates do take some real skills out of the training and assessment programmes.
 

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There's no actual requirement for a signature - who would sign my logbook when I'm the skipper of my own boat! Examiners on here have said that they want to see a log of where / when / what etc - but it doesn't actually need signed, because they will ask people about the trips and soon know if they are bluffing. The signature is not saying anything other than you saw them do what it say - X hrs, Y miles, day/night, engine/sail - wind/conditions.
[/QUOTE]

It was some years ago and if I recall correctly - the Logbook had a date column .. remarks / data column to describe the trip and a signature column.

I would assume that has been revised after such years.

But your point is right - its entirely possible to do 100 days and 3000 NM (or whatever requirements they have) and learn nothing, or to do half that with some really great people on a wide variety of boats/places/situations and genuinely come away with a load of true experience. You could easily munch miles/days on a transatlantic crossing but virtually never have to deal with colregs, close quarters manoeuvres etc or do loads of coastal hopping on the same busy stretch of water and be a master of the warping and sproinging etc but never really have to worry about what happens if something breaks and you are 7 days motoring from anywhere with only 36hrs of fuel left! The log book is meant to be a clue to the examiner on where to ask/probe find possible weakness rather than the evidence itself. A log book always signed by the same skipper might be little more comfort than a self declared one.
 
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