G
Guest
Guest
A clear English language rebuttal of Bavaria's statement can be read here:-
http://team.sailing.hu/Press_Release_JozsefGal_20050527.pdf
http://team.sailing.hu/Press_Release_JozsefGal_20050527.pdf
Proprietors of Bavaria yachts CHECK your kiels
- Thread starter branko
- Start date
iangrant
New member
Well lets look forward to what Bavaria has to say before this thread gets pulled!
Ian
Ian
tome
New member
[ QUOTE ]
A clear English language rebuttal
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I'd describe the translation in quite such glowing terms
A clear English language rebuttal
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I'd describe the translation in quite such glowing terms
iangrant
New member
looks like a monty python thing:
swedish chemist sketch
Can I have some deoderant
ball or aerosol.. no, it is for my armpits
Ian
swedish chemist sketch
Can I have some deoderant
ball or aerosol.. no, it is for my armpits
Ian
G
Guest
Guest
Seems odd - as they apparently haven't recovered the keel yet, how can Bavaria know that it shows marks of grounding???
And the bit where Bavaria say that other boats in the fleet had anti-fouling scraped off the bottom of the keel does not sound convincing at all - it is not unusual for the bottoms of keels to have had the anti-fouling rubbed off, especially soft anti-fouling, or even not have it properly applied in the first place - my boat often has much of the anti-fouling rubbed off the bottom of the keel, but I wouldn't expect the keel to fall off. To try to draw some far-fetched conclusions that another Bavaria had hit a rock seems bizarre.
In any case I would hope that hitting a rock even at a reasonable speed should not cause the keel of a boat to drop off!
Adriatic Challenges are saying that the area where the keel was lost had 60-70 metres of water, that the crew claimed that they had not hit anything, and point out that if it had hit a rock, the "hind edge of the keel would have been squeezed into the backing plate", and that the boat was basically new.
I don't know in the end who is right, but Bavaria's response seems to be terribly incoherent.
And the bit where Bavaria say that other boats in the fleet had anti-fouling scraped off the bottom of the keel does not sound convincing at all - it is not unusual for the bottoms of keels to have had the anti-fouling rubbed off, especially soft anti-fouling, or even not have it properly applied in the first place - my boat often has much of the anti-fouling rubbed off the bottom of the keel, but I wouldn't expect the keel to fall off. To try to draw some far-fetched conclusions that another Bavaria had hit a rock seems bizarre.
In any case I would hope that hitting a rock even at a reasonable speed should not cause the keel of a boat to drop off!
Adriatic Challenges are saying that the area where the keel was lost had 60-70 metres of water, that the crew claimed that they had not hit anything, and point out that if it had hit a rock, the "hind edge of the keel would have been squeezed into the backing plate", and that the boat was basically new.
I don't know in the end who is right, but Bavaria's response seems to be terribly incoherent.
G
Guest
Guest
You followed the link? It seems pretty icy-clear to me, unlike some of the other translations floating around.
tome
New member
Yes, I followed the link but found the translation dissapointing in the sense that the true English meaning had to be guessed at. I applaud them for making an English translation available, but wonder why it wasnt checked and corrected with the author.
Ships_Cat
New member
as they apparently haven't recovered the keel yet, how can Bavaria know that it shows marks of grounding???
Could you show me exactly where Bavaria say that the lost keel shows marks of grounding?
Thanks
John
Could you show me exactly where Bavaria say that the lost keel shows marks of grounding?
Thanks
John
G
Guest
Guest
You're right, I'm misquoting it - they are saying in their statement as quoted by Jasu74 that damage on the yacht indicates that it hit a rock while heeling - they don't specify that the damage they saw is on the keel.
The slightly garbled point that I was trying to make is that this sounds odd - if they haven't seen impact damage on the keel (because the keel hasn't been recovered) it would seem to me rather premature already to draw a conclusion that the keel was ripped off by a rock, unless there is somehow really strong evidence on the hull that the keel hit a rock - and Adriatic Challenges seem to be saying that there isn't evidence of the latter.
I'm not saying that Bavaria are wrong - the truth will hopefully come out later after all the enquiries, just that at this stage their response strikes me as having the whiff of a public relations damage limitation exercise rather than a cold analysis of the facts.
For example, all this stuff about soft anti-fouling having been wiped off the bottoms of the keels of some of the other yachts - how can they draw conclusions from that?
The slightly garbled point that I was trying to make is that this sounds odd - if they haven't seen impact damage on the keel (because the keel hasn't been recovered) it would seem to me rather premature already to draw a conclusion that the keel was ripped off by a rock, unless there is somehow really strong evidence on the hull that the keel hit a rock - and Adriatic Challenges seem to be saying that there isn't evidence of the latter.
I'm not saying that Bavaria are wrong - the truth will hopefully come out later after all the enquiries, just that at this stage their response strikes me as having the whiff of a public relations damage limitation exercise rather than a cold analysis of the facts.
For example, all this stuff about soft anti-fouling having been wiped off the bottoms of the keels of some of the other yachts - how can they draw conclusions from that?
G
Guest
Guest
Unfair or true ....
Bavaria provide a series of boats that corner a particular section of market .... allowing people to buy into a larger new boat for their kudo's.
It has been debated many times about quality and whether Bav's are built to a price or take advantage of mass - bulk buying etc.
As a surveyor and owner of a Marine Inspection business - I would call time out on this whole issue ... as its emotive and prone to bias / mis-information.
Yes - I have witnessed on many an occasion certain traits - such as a 44 being lifted from its props to complete commissioning launch .... the keel did not start to move significantly till the hull had basically flexed back to original form ... yes she when had to be lifted at season end exhibited same where hull depressed as weight came on keel and into props ....
Yes I am a traditional older boat lover - but that does not stop me liking / envying those who can pay for new boats - I can't !! even at Bav price ......
There is a lot of crap talked about AWB's ... some shall we say embroidered from fact, some just fantasy .....
So I suggest before it degenerates into AWB bashing - lets keep to fact / quotations .....
Long Live Clinker !!
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Bavaria provide a series of boats that corner a particular section of market .... allowing people to buy into a larger new boat for their kudo's.
It has been debated many times about quality and whether Bav's are built to a price or take advantage of mass - bulk buying etc.
As a surveyor and owner of a Marine Inspection business - I would call time out on this whole issue ... as its emotive and prone to bias / mis-information.
Yes - I have witnessed on many an occasion certain traits - such as a 44 being lifted from its props to complete commissioning launch .... the keel did not start to move significantly till the hull had basically flexed back to original form ... yes she when had to be lifted at season end exhibited same where hull depressed as weight came on keel and into props ....
Yes I am a traditional older boat lover - but that does not stop me liking / envying those who can pay for new boats - I can't !! even at Bav price ......
There is a lot of crap talked about AWB's ... some shall we say embroidered from fact, some just fantasy .....
So I suggest before it degenerates into AWB bashing - lets keep to fact / quotations .....
Long Live Clinker !!
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
zefender
Active member
Re: Unfair or true ....
Well said that man!
Well said that man!
G
Guest
Guest
Evolution of Ships / Yachts etc. + a moment of silence for a lost one.
This is a personal opinion and is not to be confused with any statement or other reagrding Bavaria Match etc. (Ok that's out of the way !!)
Most people have noticed that the days of heavy construction, stick another gob of resin there to make sure etc, have gone. Similar with ships ... where previously steel scantlings were minimum spec to build to - they are now computer controlled to be exactly that. Look at modern ships and the skeletal framework can be seen clearly along the hulls where the plates press in etc. Older more 'robust' ships took 20 yrs to do that !
Take modern yachts .... where they try to cover two roles ... cruising and round the cans ... the lay-ups get reduced to lesser margins .... computer controlled lay-up of matt / resin, careful monitoring of materials into the construction etc. The monitoring is actually IMHO more to do with economics than quality of the materials. Imagine a boat builder saving 10% or so on resin / matt etc. across his production line .... using a lesser sized bolt or fitting .... it all adds up.
I firmly believe based on many boats I look at and sail on - that construction techniques have evolved in 2 ways ... better control and ability to create a better more even lay-up or construction, but also the ability to reduce amounts of material used and so reducing strength. The arguements sometimes come out that stress induced by too stiff a body can be counter, that modern hulls etc. are more designed to work with elements .... are better balanced etc.
Yeh ........ tell the trimaran that lost its bows of West Country not so long ago when under trial for serious off-shore work .... tell the well known Yacht builder who's internal hull frame to take chain-plate loads separated from the hull, tell the owners who had bilge keels left behind in the mud when tide came in ....
I applaud evolution and development of design and increased benefits .... but a race yacht is the worst offender..... IMHO .....
A race yacht is designed at start to win a race and to comply with certain specifications concerning weight, size, stability etc. So lets put on design caps and think about it .... shape is one thing - but form shape and weight combined are serious factors that can make or break a race winner ... so cut back on weight, change form a bit to compensate dynamically .... viola race winner. How do you cut back on weight ?
Get my drift ? Please I am not saying that Bav is guilty of this - I opinion that most builders today suffer this illness - it's a market trend that unfortunately now prevails .... until tragedy hits the headlines ....
Remember the famous Yacht Race of South West UK where numerous boats foundered in bad weather .... where the design spec's were changed as a result to prevent inherently unstable boats from doing it again ...
The demand for faster boats pushes designs to limits .... therefore it will happen as builders comply with demand. Human nature dictates to us all - "It will never happen to me ...." Sadly it has and I think we should all take time out to consider the poor unfortunate soul who lost his life as a result of some decision or other on this yacht .... and all the others who have similarly lost lives .......
Please a minutes silence for them ...
and hope that Bav and all do a proper investigation to try and ensure it doesn't happen again ...
This is a personal opinion and is not to be confused with any statement or other reagrding Bavaria Match etc. (Ok that's out of the way !!)
Most people have noticed that the days of heavy construction, stick another gob of resin there to make sure etc, have gone. Similar with ships ... where previously steel scantlings were minimum spec to build to - they are now computer controlled to be exactly that. Look at modern ships and the skeletal framework can be seen clearly along the hulls where the plates press in etc. Older more 'robust' ships took 20 yrs to do that !
Take modern yachts .... where they try to cover two roles ... cruising and round the cans ... the lay-ups get reduced to lesser margins .... computer controlled lay-up of matt / resin, careful monitoring of materials into the construction etc. The monitoring is actually IMHO more to do with economics than quality of the materials. Imagine a boat builder saving 10% or so on resin / matt etc. across his production line .... using a lesser sized bolt or fitting .... it all adds up.
I firmly believe based on many boats I look at and sail on - that construction techniques have evolved in 2 ways ... better control and ability to create a better more even lay-up or construction, but also the ability to reduce amounts of material used and so reducing strength. The arguements sometimes come out that stress induced by too stiff a body can be counter, that modern hulls etc. are more designed to work with elements .... are better balanced etc.
Yeh ........ tell the trimaran that lost its bows of West Country not so long ago when under trial for serious off-shore work .... tell the well known Yacht builder who's internal hull frame to take chain-plate loads separated from the hull, tell the owners who had bilge keels left behind in the mud when tide came in ....
I applaud evolution and development of design and increased benefits .... but a race yacht is the worst offender..... IMHO .....
A race yacht is designed at start to win a race and to comply with certain specifications concerning weight, size, stability etc. So lets put on design caps and think about it .... shape is one thing - but form shape and weight combined are serious factors that can make or break a race winner ... so cut back on weight, change form a bit to compensate dynamically .... viola race winner. How do you cut back on weight ?
Get my drift ? Please I am not saying that Bav is guilty of this - I opinion that most builders today suffer this illness - it's a market trend that unfortunately now prevails .... until tragedy hits the headlines ....
Remember the famous Yacht Race of South West UK where numerous boats foundered in bad weather .... where the design spec's were changed as a result to prevent inherently unstable boats from doing it again ...
The demand for faster boats pushes designs to limits .... therefore it will happen as builders comply with demand. Human nature dictates to us all - "It will never happen to me ...." Sadly it has and I think we should all take time out to consider the poor unfortunate soul who lost his life as a result of some decision or other on this yacht .... and all the others who have similarly lost lives .......
Please a minutes silence for them ...
and hope that Bav and all do a proper investigation to try and ensure it doesn't happen again ...
branko
New member
Re: Evolution of Ships / Yachts etc. + a moment of silence for a lost one.
Yes I agree with your oppinion 100% except that even racing yachts are build in accordance with Lloyds or Det Norske Veritas or.... other national standards. Those standards give rules ...what minimum thickness have to be for example bottom around keel . Bavaria 42 Match have Lloyd register certificate and in accordance with that is safe boat regarding construction. The other point is quality of materials and building - in that case responsible is producer.
Yes I agree with your oppinion 100% except that even racing yachts are build in accordance with Lloyds or Det Norske Veritas or.... other national standards. Those standards give rules ...what minimum thickness have to be for example bottom around keel . Bavaria 42 Match have Lloyd register certificate and in accordance with that is safe boat regarding construction. The other point is quality of materials and building - in that case responsible is producer.
Sailfree
Well-known member
When I have antifouled my boat the yard always prop it on the keel resulting in the underside of the keel (and the support positions) get the lightest of coverings immediately prior to launching. I am sure that after a few months it would appear from the lack of antifoul that the keel had scraped the bottom!
G
Guest
Guest
The real world exacts a high price ...
Evolution and designers develop new materials stronger and lighter etc. etc.
OK - fine but with new design programs, accurate cutters, laser etchers etc. the limits are followed rather than the specification + a bit on safe side.
As regards Lloyds .... there is a famous true story about a large Bulk Carrier who broke up and sank with all hands .... the sister ships exhibited exactly same charactersitics - but luckily did not sink .... They were all built to very high standards in Brit yards to Lloyds X A1 ...... (sorry I cannot do the Maltese cross - so substituted the X) ........ and the final terrible bit about it - investigations left many questions and families still do not have official recognition of why it really happened .... many sea-going persons have a very good idea of what happened - but thats no consolation to them ....
A structural test / NDT schedule is not out there in real life and no-one has managed to reconstruct fully lifes models ...
Finally a certificate can be issued against a single boat for a series ... so if you think that every single boat built has Lloyds guy standing there with gauges and feelers etc. I don't think so some how ...... witness the statement already that some boats had 1 plate, 2plates and others 3 plates with the keel fittings .... if Lloyds was there for each boat - you think he would allow that ??
Sorry .... I don't believe it.
Evolution and designers develop new materials stronger and lighter etc. etc.
OK - fine but with new design programs, accurate cutters, laser etchers etc. the limits are followed rather than the specification + a bit on safe side.
As regards Lloyds .... there is a famous true story about a large Bulk Carrier who broke up and sank with all hands .... the sister ships exhibited exactly same charactersitics - but luckily did not sink .... They were all built to very high standards in Brit yards to Lloyds X A1 ...... (sorry I cannot do the Maltese cross - so substituted the X) ........ and the final terrible bit about it - investigations left many questions and families still do not have official recognition of why it really happened .... many sea-going persons have a very good idea of what happened - but thats no consolation to them ....
A structural test / NDT schedule is not out there in real life and no-one has managed to reconstruct fully lifes models ...
Finally a certificate can be issued against a single boat for a series ... so if you think that every single boat built has Lloyds guy standing there with gauges and feelers etc. I don't think so some how ...... witness the statement already that some boats had 1 plate, 2plates and others 3 plates with the keel fittings .... if Lloyds was there for each boat - you think he would allow that ??
Sorry .... I don't believe it.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Re: The real world exacts a high price ...
The problem with this sort of debate (apart from the use of the internet to post one side of a story and put pressure on the other party) is that anyone thinking of buying a new boat doesnt know where to go or what to buy. Mag reports say Bavaria are quite solidly laminated, and certainly the boat displacement isnt much different length for length from other mass producers. So will the keels also fall off Jeanny and Benny and Hanse? And will the internal mouldings seperate from the hull they are glued to? Will someone say?
And if you cough up and buy Swedish, will it really be much different since the weights again arent very much higher. Does the extra money go on a better inside or better laminates?
Even if you buy an older boat you cant be sure. Westerly bilge keels anyone? Or Sadler skegs? Or Macwester keels.
What we really need is the Nigel Luthers of this world to say "the new XYZ is a good boat" ! You can safely buy this.
The problem with this sort of debate (apart from the use of the internet to post one side of a story and put pressure on the other party) is that anyone thinking of buying a new boat doesnt know where to go or what to buy. Mag reports say Bavaria are quite solidly laminated, and certainly the boat displacement isnt much different length for length from other mass producers. So will the keels also fall off Jeanny and Benny and Hanse? And will the internal mouldings seperate from the hull they are glued to? Will someone say?
And if you cough up and buy Swedish, will it really be much different since the weights again arent very much higher. Does the extra money go on a better inside or better laminates?
Even if you buy an older boat you cant be sure. Westerly bilge keels anyone? Or Sadler skegs? Or Macwester keels.
What we really need is the Nigel Luthers of this world to say "the new XYZ is a good boat" ! You can safely buy this.
branko
New member
Re: The real world exacts a high price ...
No Nigel, Lloyd is not present on every building project . As it is my primary job
( shipbuilder) and understand that you are not so far , my oppinion is that Lloyd give rules and producers have to confirm that some project is built in accordance with this regulation.Lloyds inspectors than control congruance with their Register and give approval(I am talking about big ships in shipyard). But it is the same for small yachts .If any boat have stamp inside with Lloyds approval ( and every Bavaria have!)- that means that boat is build up in acc. with regulations.It is not necessarry that Lloyd inspector control at the end of building every vessel.
What I would like to conclude is that Producer is responsible for their product so if it was fault in building first of all inspections will control is the boat build in acc. with regulations (Lloyd) and than - quality of work.
Personally I agree with you that we must wait for final Bavaria report.
Nevertheless I think that Bavaria yachts are still best Price performance yachts.
No Nigel, Lloyd is not present on every building project . As it is my primary job
( shipbuilder) and understand that you are not so far , my oppinion is that Lloyd give rules and producers have to confirm that some project is built in accordance with this regulation.Lloyds inspectors than control congruance with their Register and give approval(I am talking about big ships in shipyard). But it is the same for small yachts .If any boat have stamp inside with Lloyds approval ( and every Bavaria have!)- that means that boat is build up in acc. with regulations.It is not necessarry that Lloyd inspector control at the end of building every vessel.
What I would like to conclude is that Producer is responsible for their product so if it was fault in building first of all inspections will control is the boat build in acc. with regulations (Lloyd) and than - quality of work.
Personally I agree with you that we must wait for final Bavaria report.
Nevertheless I think that Bavaria yachts are still best Price performance yachts.
Superstrath
New member
Re: The real world exacts a high price ...
[ QUOTE ]
there is a famous true story about a large Bulk Carrier who broke up and sank with all hands .... the sister ships exhibited exactly same charactersitics - but luckily did not sink ....
[/ QUOTE ]
Nigel, if you are referring to the Derbyshire, IIRC the "Kowloon Bridge" is lying on the bottom of Bantry Bay.
A bad business.
[ QUOTE ]
there is a famous true story about a large Bulk Carrier who broke up and sank with all hands .... the sister ships exhibited exactly same charactersitics - but luckily did not sink ....
[/ QUOTE ]
Nigel, if you are referring to the Derbyshire, IIRC the "Kowloon Bridge" is lying on the bottom of Bantry Bay.
A bad business.
jasu74
New member
Re: The real world exacts a high price ...
If You think that the keel can not drop from scandinavian boat You are wrong /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've hered at least about Finngulf wich losed its keel very shortly after sea setting. What matters is that as far as I heard the boatyard fixed the problem as soon as possible.
what I hope is that incident will be investigated and bavaria yachbau will release a proper press release. I beleave that we all would like to know if there is something wrong in match series and IMHO we all should also know if there is not any stuctural problems in those (at least I would, I happend to own a 35 match)
If You think that the keel can not drop from scandinavian boat You are wrong /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've hered at least about Finngulf wich losed its keel very shortly after sea setting. What matters is that as far as I heard the boatyard fixed the problem as soon as possible.
what I hope is that incident will be investigated and bavaria yachbau will release a proper press release. I beleave that we all would like to know if there is something wrong in match series and IMHO we all should also know if there is not any stuctural problems in those (at least I would, I happend to own a 35 match)
G
Guest
Guest
To Branko ....
Please accept my apology if you think I am pressing you - that is not the point or object of my posts - I too am in the shipping industry - having spent 17yrs on ships + running my own Marine Survey Co. It is because of my profession that I made the post about lack of Lloyds on each building. Yes I agree that a builder has to conform to all buids to comply with the certificate - but fact is that inspector is not always there and mistakes / errors do happen .....
In another area - part of my business is checking loading and discharge of ships for quality and quantity of product - why ? Because people cut corners, trick, make mistakes etc. etc. BUT the difference is we are always there making sure that if it happens it is noted ..... and where-ever possible corrected.
I have seen all sorts of tricks / faults / cheap alternatives in yacht / ship construction .... nothing surprises me anymore ...
I have greatest sympathy with the loss of anyone and in particular when its unnecessary. I am appalled by the Bavaria staement so far as I feel it does not appreciate that full investigation has not been concluded - it appears to lay blame before full facts are known.... or at least attempts to save Bavaria face .... sad.
Please accept my apology if you think I am pressing you - that is not the point or object of my posts - I too am in the shipping industry - having spent 17yrs on ships + running my own Marine Survey Co. It is because of my profession that I made the post about lack of Lloyds on each building. Yes I agree that a builder has to conform to all buids to comply with the certificate - but fact is that inspector is not always there and mistakes / errors do happen .....
In another area - part of my business is checking loading and discharge of ships for quality and quantity of product - why ? Because people cut corners, trick, make mistakes etc. etc. BUT the difference is we are always there making sure that if it happens it is noted ..... and where-ever possible corrected.
I have seen all sorts of tricks / faults / cheap alternatives in yacht / ship construction .... nothing surprises me anymore ...
I have greatest sympathy with the loss of anyone and in particular when its unnecessary. I am appalled by the Bavaria staement so far as I feel it does not appreciate that full investigation has not been concluded - it appears to lay blame before full facts are known.... or at least attempts to save Bavaria face .... sad.