PRINCESS 52 - Joystick or bow/stern thrusters?

[2013PrincessV39]

Hi All,

Currently decided on a new Princess 52, however I can't get a straight answer on whether to go for the Joysick, or the Bow/Stern truster helm controls with hold function.

Reasons given for/against are below, but I can't get a definitive answer;

JOYSTICK
- used to it in current stern driven boat (39 on props) and naturally understand it.
- apparently the joystick is used by the "new generation" and is somehow new-school (whatever that means)
- However not enough power in this joystick in the wind, and over revs the engines often (why would they offer it in that case?)

BOW/STERN THRUSTER SWITCHES
- what all the experienced skippers I've met prefer (but that's so the controls translate to all the boats they skipper and deliver, whereas this will be my only boat)

- a P52 sits better in the water as a heavy prop driven vessel, and I will find this system more intuitive.
(Although PMYS can't find me a boat to test it on???)

Thanks for any advice!

 

[rubberduck]

Thrusters with something like this, best of both worlds. (Make sure thruster power is balance otherwise you go sidewards diagonally).

http://www.osmotech.co.uk/hydronautica

 

[curiouskb]

Thrusters with something like this, best of both worlds. (Make sure thruster power is balance otherwise you go sidewards diagonally).

http://www.osmotech.co.uk/hydronautica

I have a P43 with bow and stern thrusters and I am happy with it. However I find the bow thrusters much more effective than the stern one esp. in strong cross wind.

 

[volvopaul]

I

Hi All,

Currently decided on a new Princess 52, however I can't get a straight answer on whether to go for the Joysick, or the Bow/Stern truster helm controls with hold function.

Reasons given for/against are below, but I can't get a definitive answer;

JOYSTICK
- used to it in current stern driven boat (52 on props) and naturally understand it.
- apparently the joystick is used by the "new generation" and is somehow new-school (whatever that means)
- However not enough power in this joystick in the wind, and over revs the engines often (why would they offer it in that case?)

BOW/STERN THRUSTER SWITCHES
- what all the experienced skippers I've met prefer (but that's so the controls translate to all the boats they skipper and deliver, whereas this will be my only boat)

- a P52 sits better in the water as a heavy prop driven vessel, and I will find this system more intuitive.
(Although PMYS can't find me a boat to test it on???)

Thanks for any advice!

The joystick system will put many more years wear and tear on your gearboxes and thrusters, you have two big engines with lots of inertia and prop wash to put a boat like that anywhere you want once you have learned to drive it. I'd say your v39 is a more difficult boat to handle than your proposed upgrade.

 

[Bazzer]

I would always go for bow and stern thruster with hold function on shafts. so much nicer, less stress on engines etc, also if you could at the wash that joystick controls put out as Volvopaul has stated must be lots more stress on your drives.

 

[2013PrincessV39]

Thank you for all the great advice. I'm already starting to get a better picture of which way to go on this one, as this boat will certainly be a different animal, especially in how it handles.

Thank you once again!

 

[Bandit]

Your current boat is on drives, the 52 fly bridge on shafts is much heavier in the water and the bow much less likely to blow away.

Manoeuvreing on outdrives is completely different to shafts, you will need to learn again, its a different mindset.

You need to learn first to drive solely on your engines and gearboxes and use the thrusters for the final fine control only.

Get the largest thrusters they fit to that model as well as a remote control and get some tuition for a few days thrown in by the builder in your boat.

 

[Portofino]

My inclination would be avoid anything technical that's not really necessary especially if it carries a Volvo sticker .
Sea air and computers / sensors / connectors = malfunction .
That's kinda ok under warranty -but still hassle and may risk the pleasure of ownership -with unplanned downtime ?
At offload time potential buyers will i suspect be put off ( unless they all have it fitted ) .Hi low platforms ,sterndrives , IPS pods ,5-9 years old are two more examples of what to avoid -if you can .Great when new Agree .
Sounds like new boat has shafts and at least a bow thruster .
That's what I have moved into from Volvo Kad 300 on sterndrives ( 9 y old ) + small vp be thruster -Sunseeker Portofino 35 -same size as your V39 to a 14-5 M - 48 ft shaft 700 hp -with a real big vetus bow thruster .
Suppose a stern thruster may be handy -and at new build may as well tick that box .That's a good option at offload time .
How ever handling wise as others have said it feels easier ,I know it's bigger and so logic kinda dictates -harder to handle /park --but it's more stable ,turns more in the middle ,less susceptible to X winds 17 tons dry ( 8 tons dry ) -deeper V = more keel effect ,two blades /rudders hanging at the back -and as back up a stonking bow thruster -
As others have said the " downer" is the prop pitch on this it's severe -first click and it's lurches -so it's click in .click straight out .
Where as with the sterndrives you click and there was a pause as the duo-props spun up ,then another pause as the boat started to turn .
With this instant reaction at the click - but once mastered it turns true and reverses ( Med mooring ) true and straight ..
Good Luck with it

 

[Bandit]

Bow and Stern thruster on a boat this size is expected when the time comes to sell, anyway a boat of this size, weight and windage is too big to pull in or push off with a boat hook so go for the Stern thruster its a must.

I personally would not go for anything other than normal gearboxs, trolling valves if available help a lot to soften the bite out of gearbox movements if an option.

I don't agree with Portofinos comments on IPS its a game changer especially with the larger engines on D 13s etc

 

[Portofino]

I was specifically alluding to high perceived or real maintenance costs of ips @ 5-9 years down the line
Accept great for the first owner , and all " big benefits " listed below

This is just one specimin example -I think it's balanced
.No seawater intrusion many are not not lucky -
Re: Volvo Penta IPS
by Sea Dawg » Wed May 28, 2014 12:16 pm

Sea Dawg has IPS 500 D series built in 2010 so we have only had the stainless steel seals and no water intrusion issues to date (675 engine hours and in salt water all year round except for annual maintenance haul). The big benefits of IPS in the beginning were maneveurability, performance and fuel economy. These days, many manufacturers can offer joystick control on straight shaft systems with thrusters and even multi motor outboard or stern drive systems, so manueverability is no longer the Holy Grail. Neither is economy as the IPS service costs compared to straight shafts consumes significantly more money than any dollars saved in fuel. IPS requires annual lube oil change (regardless of hours run) which requires a haul (it cannot be done in water). Every five years or 1200 hours (whichever comes first), the pods have to be dropped from the boat, disassembled and the shaft seals replaced. The cost of this little evolution on a twin engine boat is north of $22K AND as noted in an earlier post in this thread, having the wrong tech involved ends up causing more trouble. So the TCOO (total cost of ownership) of pods is impossible to justify IMHO. Regrettably, I did not figure all of this out until a couple of years into the POD world for Sea Dawg.

The design of the IPS pods with forward facing props make them very vulnerable to strikes whether from the bottom, dead heads or flotsam that gets run over by the boat.

 

[Switch]

I have a 42ft boat fitted with out drives and a stern thruster. As previously said, the stern thruster will not be as effective the bow thruster because it sits between the drives which does impede its effectiveness slightly (at least on my set up). This isn't a problem necessarily but you need to make allowances when for this when manoeuvring.

 

[henryf]

We have a P50 flybridge with CAT C12 Acert engines driving shafts. Bow and stern thruster.

The shaft drives allow you to place the stern pretty much where ever you want. Able to manoeuvre at tick over (the previous P42 needed a touch of throttle when close quarters handling). With good stern control via the engines the bow thruster then corrects any unwanted movement of the front end and also allows you to move sideways with the necessary forward- aft input of the engines.

Stern thruster helps with crew assisting dabs here or there to get the aft in when mooring etc. Both bow and stern thrusters are there for extremely close quarters stuff between boats etc.

The reality is you need a bow thruster on a shaft driven boat, the stern thruster is a welcome bonus.

I wouldn't entertain IPS on perceived maintenance grounds. Having owned shaft driven boats for approximately 15 years I think the only maintenance I've had to do was a set of cutlass bearings on the Phantom 42 fly. Princess shaft seals are superb.

Learning to handle a shaft driven boat with bow and stern thrusters really isn't difficult. If you need a joystick I would question whether you should be out on the water without a professional skipper. I know that's going to sound harsh and I don't mean to sound like a willy waving "I can do it with my eyes closed and one hand tied behind my back" skipper but it really isn't so difficult that it warrants some automated system and a joystick. In fact I wonder if at times it makes things harder for those who have taken a little time out to learn the ropes?

Henry

 

[jrudge]

Henry - had a bad day?

"If you need a joystick I would question whether you should be out on the water without a professional skipper."


Joysticks are just an evolution. That evolution may not be for everyone, but that is not really the question being asked - the question is I have 2 options ...

Sat Nav. God, you just need an atlas. ABS - for goodness sake, just learn how to break, Stability Control - can't believe it, just ease off an learn how to drive!

No on a personal level I agree that ironically the bigger the boat, the simpler it is to "park" and bow / stern thrusters work for me. I am not sure what joystick method is proposed here ( pods or gearbox /thruster control), but it is just a method of controlling the boat.

I have only seen a joystick in use once, and that was on a YBW demo day. I can't remember which boat (It might have been a princess) but it did work.

Joysticks, autohelm, plotters, stern thrusters, bow thrusters - they all serve a purpose - they just might not be for everyone,

 

[Nigelpickin]

Hi All,

- a P52 sits better in the water as a heavy prop driven vessel, and I will find this system more intuitive.
(Although PMYS can't find me a boat to test it on???)

Thanks for any advice!

I don't think you are getting to the bottom of the question, If the system were any good I would expect that one of the shiney boats lined up in Sutton would have it fitted for you to peruse...

I suspect that these shaft/thruster/combos are mainly an attempt to cash in on the term 'joystick' and for non ips boats to find a solution for owners wanting the IPS vectoring performance.

With regards to cost of ips maintenance, well it's redundant in this thread as IPS is not an option, but FWIW 1500 a year for me is well worth the cost. Henry's point regarding the need to have a joystick is fair enough from a proficiency point of view. Any owner/driver should be able to handle the boat 'off joystick' at close quarters but for me, the joy that the Joystick brings into everyday operation is key.

But back on point, I suspect that the system your dealer is discussing will be little better than the bow/stern thruster with holding option...and to fork out on it without a demo might be a leap of faith too far....unless they are guaranteeing operating parameters/performance?

Very exciting to hear about the boat purchase and look forward to hearing how it goes.....

 

[henryf]

Henry - had a bad day?

"If you need a joystick I would question whether you should be out on the water without a professional skipper."


Joysticks are just an evolution. That evolution may not be for everyone, but that is not really the question being asked - the question is I have 2 options ...

Sat Nav. God, you just need an atlas. ABS - for goodness sake, just learn how to break, Stability Control - can't believe it, just ease off an learn how to drive!

Joysticks, autohelm, plotters, stern thrusters, bow thrusters - they all serve a purpose - they just might not be for everyone,

Every other boating feature you mention serves a useful purpose without tempting someone out of their depth. You have to know the basics of what you're doing before you engage the auto helm, the chart plotter only does what you tell it to. The problem with a joystick is that the operator has no idea which bits of the boat are being engaged and so doesn't really understand the principles at play. When it all goes wrong or circumstances contrive to make the joystick ineffective the owner is left stranded.

A chart plotter solves the problem of knowing where you are. There are other methods (but an atlas isn't one of them), but the plotter is quick and largely error free. You still have to use chart reading skills to ensure that you are more or less in the right place. Is that cardinal mark roughly at 10 O'clock and the two port hand marks in line? With a joystick you haven't got a clue. Stuff just happens without your say so and hopefully the boat moves as you want. Ultimately I think it's trying to solve a problem which isn't there for someone with basic boat handling skills on a shaft drive boat like the P52.

In your car metaphor I would liken it to auto-park rather than the safety features you mention and yes, I would also say that someone who can't reverse into a parking space probably shouldn't be at the wheel.

IPS is an interesting one when it comes to joystick control. The vectoring abilities can potentially be harnessed in a way that the manual operator might not be able to achieve. Independent rotation and gearbox / throttle control would be too complex. It may be that IPS pods can not be rotated independently in which case ignore my last.

The P52 is only offered on shafts driving 2 good sized props in the traditional manner. Any skipper worth their salt will be able to hop on board and handle it at close quarters. To provide additional security a stern thruster would be a welcome addition to the standard fit bow thruster and considered essential by many buyers. As I never cruise single handed the hold function wouldn't be used.

As has been said already exciting times with a new arrival. Enjoy


Henry

 

[2013PrincessV39]

Every other boating feature you mention serves a useful purpose without tempting someone out of their depth. You have to know the basics of what you're doing before you engage the auto helm, the chart plotter only does what you tell it to. The problem with a joystick is that the operator has no idea which bits of the boat are being engaged and so doesn't really understand the principles at play. When it all goes wrong or circumstances contrive to make the joystick ineffective the owner is left stranded.

A chart plotter solves the problem of knowing where you are. There are other methods (but an atlas isn't one of them), but the plotter is quick and largely error free. You still have to use chart reading skills to ensure that you are more or less in the right place. Is that cardinal mark roughly at 10 O'clock and the two port hand marks in line? With a joystick you haven't got a clue. Stuff just happens without your say so and hopefully the boat moves as you want. Ultimately I think it's trying to solve a problem which isn't there for someone with basic boat handling skills on a shaft drive boat like the P52.

In your car metaphor I would liken it to auto-park rather than the safety features you mention and yes, I would also say that someone who can't reverse into a parking space probably shouldn't be at the wheel.

IPS is an interesting one when it comes to joystick control. The vectoring abilities can potentially be harnessed in a way that the manual operator might not be able to achieve. Independent rotation and gearbox / throttle control would be too complex. It may be that IPS pods can not be rotated independently in which case ignore my last.

The P52 is only offered on shafts driving 2 good sized props in the traditional manner. Any skipper worth their salt will be able to hop on board and handle it at close quarters. To provide additional security a stern thruster would be a welcome addition to the standard fit bow thruster and considered essential by many buyers. As I never cruise single handed the hold function wouldn't be used.

As has been said already exciting times with a new arrival. Enjoy


Henry

Hi Henry,

I would have to completely agree with everything you have said in your posts regarding the use f a joystick, as the only real learning curve on my training courses I suffered, was using engine-only steering to berth at close quarters, which is why I'm really asking the question in the first place, as the V39 can be a b*^%# to berth in either situation and I have no real feeling of what a bigger flybridge would be like.

A joysticks main obstace is when it comes up against almost any wind, as the engine is really under heavy strain to counter even the most simple gust (even if it looks cool!).

Should I be firm with PMYS about testing a variable bow/stern thruster boat, as everyone I ask its a long drawn out no...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

If you need a joystick I would question whether you should be out on the water without a professional skipper

Agree with that henryf if only because one day, the joystick thingy will pack up and the helmsman will be left with 2 throttles instead. I really can't understand the need for joystick control on a shaftdrive boat as a shaftdrive boat is usually so responsive to using the engines to control it. I agree with you on the need for a sternthruster as well, it's only really useful for making small adjustments when the boat is already nearly tied up. Rather than a joystick, I would spend the money on upgrading the bowthruster to as powerful a model as can be fitted in the P52. Mobo manufacturers tend to skimp on specifying the bowthrusters they fit to their boats and there's nothing worse than finding you can't move the bow of your boat against a stiff breeze when you really need it

 

[henryf]

Hi Henry,

I would have to completely agree with everything you have said in your posts regarding the use f a joystick, as the only real learning curve on my training courses I suffered, was using engine-only steering to berth at close quarters, which is why I'm really asking the question in the first place, as the V39 can be a b*^%# to berth in either situation and I have no real feeling of what a bigger flybridge would be like.

A joysticks main obstace is when it comes up against almost any wind, as the engine is really under heavy strain to counter even the most simple gust (even if it looks cool!).

Should I be firm with PMYS about testing a variable bow/stern thruster boat, as everyone I ask its a long drawn out no...

There is a significant difference between stern drives and shafts when it comes to moving the back of the boat around. With stern drives you change the angle of thrust as you move the wheel. This can sometimes be used to good effect, but it can also get you into all sorts of difficulties.

With a shaft drive boat the props are fixed so they do the same thing all the time. Yes, you need to make sure your rudders are more or less in the middle but at tick over the rudder effect is minimal. The props are designed so that they help the stern move by "walking" in the direction you want. With counter rotating twin prop stern drives you get none of this extra help. It all means that the P52 will be much more responsive and natural to handle.

As for variable or standard thrusters, well I can't see the disadvantage of variable thrusters but I've never used them. You will be able to get a feel for close quarters handling on a P52 (or similar) with standard thrusters. The variable thrusters will, presumably only add to the experience.

Henry

 

[Hurricane]

I agree with Henry except for the variable thruster argument.

Bowthrusters tend to be standard on boats of this size but IMO it is worth upgrading them to the most powerful that they offer.
The bow is the one part that you can't control positively in a tight situation - bowthrusters resolve that problem.
But if there is a strong wind, it would be easier if the bowthruster was powerful enough to combat it.

Stern thruster
I would definitely fit one.
I don't use it a huge amount for actual maneuvering but once you are in your berth, it (like the bow thruster) is extremely useful whilst your crew are setting all the lines etc.
In the Med, both thrusters are very handy at keeping the boat lined up whilst reversing into a tight berth.
Most on here will agree that you don't actually need a stern thruster but it is really handy to have as a reserve if you get things wrong.
I've always reckoned that a that a stern thruster can save you its cost in the saving of any knocks that you might get bu not having one.
And sometimes, it is nice to cheat and use it when you otherwise should use your skill!!!

As to variable thrust - I really can't see the point.
Generally speaking, when you need a thruster - you need it - and a good blast makes the difference.
Just "pussy footing around" with them is a waste of time - IMO

As to joystick control - IMO - it really isn't necessary.

EDIT
Just reread Deleted User's post - he is saying much the same.

 

[henryf]

I agree with Henry except for the variable thruster argument.

I'm not sure there is any disagreement. By the sound of things we all use our thrusters in the same way.

Would I fit variable thrusters? No. But then I haven't got the bow thruster off an oil tanker. Maybe if you über spec them there are times when you might want to tone things down a bit, particularly when it comes to those little tickles to help your crew when sorting out the ropes?

Henry