Pre GGR event entrant collision with Bulk Carrier. HOW?

[Uricanejack]

Pure speculation based on absolutely no information.

I would expect to find there was an inadequate and ineffective lookout on both vessels.
The more interesting question,
Why did both vessels have inadequate and ineffective lookout which resulted in a colision.
The answers while in some ways similar will be really completely different.

Why did these two particular vessels collide when so many other instances of poor look out do not.

The answer will be a unique set of circumstances in a chain of events any slight difference in would have changed the outcome.
or
Just a poor lookout on both vessels, complacency and bad luck On both vessels. Fortunately they were also lucky, nobody perished.

 

[savageseadog]

One might think that astro Nav was a religion to read some of the replies on here. Astro as a back up, absolutely. I just don't see how it adds anything to an event which is arduous and dangerous enough anyway.
If there is no AIS on board, there should be.

 

[Uricanejack]

As to the root cause,

I would say, the root cause would be the organizers and sponsor of the event which they know or should reasonably be expected to know will inevitably lead to fatigue and a poor lookout On the crew of the sailing vessel taking part, and should have been reasonably expected to know such vessels while transiting areas where marine traffic is likley to be encountered had a possibility of encountering a situation such as this.

Point fingers at the sailor if you like. The reality, the sailor wouldn’t have been there without the event, the organizers, the sponsors the media and the fans.

Clearly no actual responsible authority, gives a rats ass, so perhalps thier blind eyes are complicit as well.

In any case, if those who wish to compete or take part do so knowing the risk. At their own risk and responsibly so be it. It’s their life.
Just so long as it does not adversely impact the business, carears or lively hood of those who are unfortunate enough to encounter them.
As for the organizers.
consider it fortunate large bulk carriers are unlikely to suffer much damage or any loss of life when colliding with relatively small sailing vessels.
What if it had been a smaller vessel, like another sailboat or fishing vessel?

 

[capnsensible]

One might think that astro Nav was a religion to read some of the replies on here. Astro as a back up, absolutely. I just don't see how it adds anything to an event which is arduous and dangerous enough anyway.
If there is no AIS on board, there should be.

It's only a back up if you know how to do it. Astro is a skill that needs to be practised regularly. The complaints seem to come from those that don't have the skill.

Each yacht is fitted with a yellow brick tracker. It may be that ma y of your complaints can be addressed by reading the website full of information?......

 

[ylop]

Yes I think that's test enough really. Astro Nav doesn't add anything significant enough IMO. I wonder if the sale of GPS watches accelerates before the race.......

There is certainly an extra challenge to doing your own traditional navigation - your position is likely to be ± a few miles for a lot of the race rather than ± a few meters with modern tech. Is it my idea of fun - absolutely not. Do I think its responsible - no, and I don't think multiday singlehanded passage making is responsible whether in a race or not, but its probably even worse if you aren't using all the gadetry you could to avoid collisions.

Not sure what your point is about GPS watches?

I would say that singlehanded sailing is a mindset more like ?golf? than team football

I've never played golf but I think that is quite possibly the weirdest analogy I could think of to describe singlehanded sailing in the context of the GGR. The GGR is very much an endurance activity - both physical and mental.

 

[ylop]

Point fingers at the sailor if you like. The reality, the sailor wouldn’t have been there without the event, the organizers, the sponsors the media and the fans.

Because nobody had sailed a yacht across Biscay just for fun? That particular yacht might have been in that particular location at that time because of the race - but plenty of people make that sort of crossing all the time without being linked to any event or media nonsense.

consider it fortunate large bulk carriers are unlikely to suffer much damage or any loss of life when colliding with relatively small sailing vessels.
What if it had been a smaller vessel, like another sailboat or fishing vessel?

then it might well have been manoeuvrable enough to avoid them whenever it came to light that collision was likely - whilst the yacht should have been able to avoid them lets not forget the first obligation was on the bulk carrier in open seas to change course / speed to avoid a sailing vessel!

 

[Uricanejack]

One might think that astro Nav was a religion to read some of the replies on here. Astro as a back up, absolutely. I just don't see how it adds anything to an event which is arduous and dangerous enough anyway.
If there is no AIS on board, there should be.

Clearly a critical requirement or part of the event is having the knowledge and skill to sail in a period correct vessel with period correct equipment. Astro is just one small part of this.
AIS is not required for a private sailing yacht on a pleasure voyage.

 

[ylop]

One might think that astro Nav was a religion to read some of the replies on here. Astro as a back up, absolutely. I just don't see how it adds anything to an event which is arduous and dangerous enough anyway.
If there is no AIS on board, there should be.

The entire premise of the race is to test yourself sailing non-stop round the world without any of the modern gadgets. I can think of dozens of more enjoyable ways to spend a year, I can even think of numerous ways to show that sailing and round the world racing doesn't need to be the exclusive domain of the wealthy and heavily connected with sponsors (its say given the demographics of the skippers they've still failed to make this "Open" as they claim, this is sailing for elite adventurers). BUT if I was trying to show that there are still people stupid/tough enough to try and do the sort of thing RKJ did in 1968, I'd not be letting them use GPS.

 

[Uricanejack]

Because nobody had sailed a yacht across Biscay just for fun? That particular yacht might have been in that particular location at that time because of the race - but plenty of people make that sort of crossing all the time without being linked to any event or media nonsense.


then it might well have been manoeuvrable enough to avoid them whenever it came to light that collision was likely - whilst the yacht should have been able to avoid them lets not forget the first obligation was on the bulk carrier in open seas to change course / speed to avoid a sailing vessel!

Actually both vessels are equally obligated to keep a proper look out.

Just because other idiots sail about without bothering to keep a proper lookout doesn’t absolve anyone or change the reasons why shit happened. Goes for both vessels. Two equal failures in same piece of ocean at the same time.
The rest is incidental.

 

[ylop]

Actually both vessels are equally obligated to keep a proper look out.

I never suggested otherwise.

Two equal failures in same piece of ocean at the same time.

We don't know if they were equal failures. They must both be culpable, but not necessarily equally so (either could be more culpable depending what actually happened).

 

[Supertramp]

#49 is right.

When professionals get it wrong, they really are accountable.

To not have an AIS or similar so you can be located and rescued, and seen by passing traffic, would be irresponsible given its a singlehanded race with a decent record of catastrophe. As said, I think they have something of that sort. But it can't be relied on to the exclusion of keeping watch.

I agree with the freedom to organise and take part in races like this but not when it puts non-participants lives at risk by recklessness. OK to hit a large ship (assuming they even noticed...) but what about a single hander in another small yacht?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Because


then it might well have been manoeuvrable enough to avoid them whenever it came to light that collision was likely - whilst the yacht should have been able to avoid them lets not forget the first obligation was on the bulk carrier in open seas to change course / speed to avoid a sailing vessel!

Oh blimey another 'Power gives way to Sail' blunderous statement ? recon one can asses anothers Knowledge and Experience of 'Proper Job' Seamanship by the non use of this misunderstanding information ; Heaven Forbid {:-((#

 

[Sandy]

How does a round the world yacht with a naval commander and his event manager manage to hit a bulk carrier in Biscay in what appears to be good weather.. Both have AIS and presumably the GGR yacht will have more than one collision avoidance system as it is intended for solo sailing.
Not much being said on the event website but to me this is quite alarming?
Luckily the damage was minimal but it could have been catastrophic.

Looks like both the yacht and the bridge team on the bulk carrier were not looking.

Are GGR entrants allowed AIS?

Not sure what you mean by a collision avoidance system.

 

[ylop]

Oh blimey another 'Power gives way to Sail' blunderous statement ? recon one can asses anothers Knowledge and Experience of 'Proper Job' Seamanship by the non use of this misunderstanding information ; Heaven Forbid {:-((#

I recon I can tell a lot about a person by their ability to string together a coherent sentence. Would you like to clarify why you believe that when crossing the Bay of Biscay the bulk carrier would not have had the obligation to keep out of the way of the sailing vessel as per rule 18a?

 

[ylop]

Are GGR entrants allowed AIS?

As posted further up the thread they ARE permitted to transmit their location by AIS to other vessels provided the location is not displayed to the yacht's crew. They are NOT permitted to receive/display AIS themselves.

 

[Birdseye]

What relevance does this have? Do you imagine all naval commanders are bridge watchkeepers? I have ridden on a bus but that doesn't make me a bus driver!

Perfectly true. I once had to reach nav to a lt commander and was astounded to learn that he hadnt been taught any at Dartmouth. He was an engineer on a nuke

 

[ylop]

I agree with the freedom to organise and take part in races like this but not when it puts non-participants lives at risk by recklessness. OK to hit a large ship (assuming they even noticed...) but what about a single hander in another small yacht?

they did notice, and stood by the yacht for 2 hrs whilst it sorted its mess out and assessed if safe to continue

 

[Sandy]

As posted further up the thread they ARE permitted to transmit their location by AIS to other vessels provided the location is not displayed to the yacht's crew. They are NOT permitted to receive/display AIS themselves.

That event is even more bonkers than I first thought.

 

[Blueboatman]

One might think that astro Nav was a religion to read some of the replies on here. Astro as a back up, absolutely. I just don't see how it adds anything to an event which is arduous and dangerous enough anyway.
If there is no AIS on board, there should be.

Fair enough

Btw they have satellite trackers to base

Possibly more, based on the experiences of the last race .
To me, personally, I rate access to satellite weather higher than access to gps . But that’s another thread perhaps ?

 

[RupertW]

I recon I can tell a lot about a person by their ability to string together a coherent sentence. Would you like to clarify why you believe that when crossing the Bay of Biscay the bulk carrier would not have had the obligation to keep out of the way of the sailing vessel as per rule 18a?

Overtaking is one possibility if the bulk carrier is tootling along very slowly as I‘ve often seen ships do once within 50 miles of their intended port. But also if the sailing boat makes a course change that causes the possibility of collision in a situation where the bulk carriers ability to manouvre is not fast enough to respond safely.

In almost all open sea experiences with ships then the sensible approach for a sailing vessel is to stand on but be get sails prepared to allow a last minute manoeuvre if there is any doubt, so wherever the legal responsibilaity lies the damaged sailing boat almost certainly brought it on themselves.