"Practical " Boat Owner?..

[DownWest]

This has just reminded me of Yachts & Yachting. I was sent a bi-weekly? copy at school in the early 60s. Only catch in those pre 'whatever' days was the regular page with a artistic pic of a busty mermaid... At a Catholic boys school, such 'soft porn' would have beeen anathma, so I ripped it out, in case I was asked what I was reading, and then shared it with friends
As one did..

 

[steveeasy]

I stopped buying / subscribing to pbo years ago, would read an article and realise I had read similar 2 years earlier. Thought about buying a copy recently and saw how thin it was and put it back. Had a free copy from the boat show and this confirmed that I won’t be buying it again.

You say thin but I’ve just picked up Dec 2023. Over ninty pages in it. I found the first 30 not worth looking at, but the rest had good topics. I wonder if it’s just boring if it does not relate to your boat.
From a business model perspective 90 pages in glossy paper for a £5 it’s good value to a buyer and a dreadful business model.
I wonder if forums impacted magazine interest and although I’m no fan, Facebook is the downfall of forums , which is a real shame as forum content is much more detailed and interesting.
Steveeasy

 

[ylop]

turning wind back into power?
wind is already power.
i think you meant electrical power.

Im glad you were able to understand my post.

I still do not understand how to get WIFI on my boat & having read numerous articles still cannot understand a single one of them. But then I only use my so called smart phone as a phone. But I would like to use my Ipad when in the marina.

Now that is a problem for magazine editors - make sure the level of detail is right for all the different audiences…

I recently installed a fuel transfer pump to avoid having to lift heavy spare cans & pour fuel when under way. But that would not come up as an article because I doubt anyone would have thought of it.

I’d think transferring fuel from cans to boat tank IS the sort of thing worthy of a PBO article. I’d be quite keen for a method that doesn’t result in a dribble of fuel in the sea or a hose with diesel left in it to store/smell out my locker.

I wrote an article for PBO on how I lay The club race marks & heavy sinker moorings up to 2.0 tonnes using my 20ft launch. I would have thought that lots of clubs would have profited from the info. However, they declined to print it because the airbag I use has the manufacturers name on it.

Could you not have found a way to retake the photos without the branding? If that was the only barrier to publication - although it may just have been too niche? Presumably most clubs already have an approach / technique that suits their needs, and presumably very few people in the club even care what that is! That said, it would have been of general interest - did you post the content here?

I am thinking of new sails but I shall probably go to my favourite sailmaker & discuss with him. It would be nice to know whose sails are winning races at the minute though.

Is knowing who’s sails win races actually helpful to the budget sailor that you all claim PBO was aimed at? 0.1 knots more speed but 1/2 the life is not the most useful information.

 

[Daydream believer]

The transfer is the first time that I have managed NOT to spill any fuel
The sail I used for my self tacker was supplied by Ultimate because at the time they made jibs for the winning Js & made some good blade sails. The one they made for me has lasted 6-7 years already. It is excellent, but I would like to renew. So I would counter your 1-2 year claim
Re the air bag. I cannot be arsed to do it all again. here is a typical problem
Without the name few people would know where to get one or hire it- which they can from this company. The main point of my article was how to go about it easily. 4 of us placed 10 race marks on one tide all round our race area one day using 2 airbags. 2 of us often place 4 moorings on a tide if the owners come along to assist. The trick is in the pick up off the beach & the release mechanism when in place.
As a guide this airbag is 2.4M high

 

[Daydream believer]

And, if want range, again a diesel engine is generally only running at half power or even quarter power on a sailing yacht cruising at 5-6 knots in calm weather (and yachts motor a lot in calm weather). So inefficient.

With due respect I might suggest that there is a possibility that you are ignoring a number of factors there. I am certainly not versed in the subject but I do have questions just as a layman.
For starters efficiency involves the best use of fuel & running a diesel flat out is not so.
Furthermore, the vessel has an optimum hull speed dependent on conditions etc. which may not be flat out. There are other factors. An electric motor flat out in calm weather may have no reserve.. Running a diesel at lower RPM may well be better because of the reserve in heavy weather
One has to look at the overall picture & not just a narrow band. I am sure there are many other factors that the net zero whallas would like to suppress to support their claims. Of course that works both ways

 

[zoidberg]

I think we've been privileged over the years to have had the likes of Jake Cavanagh, Claudia Wyatt, Mike Peyton - and Dick Everitt with his 5 'Sketch Books' - keeping us interested, motivated and amused.

 

[dunedin]

I do not need or ever want electric drive. ….

But nobody has ever suggested that you would be forced to (although you have had to replace one diesel engine already).
But as I think ylop said early on, it is good to maintain an open mind and read / learn about new things.
Otherise you surely would have a wooden gaff rigger, with tarred sides, cotton sails and hemp running rigging.

 

[dunedin]

With due respect I might suggest that there is a possibility that you are ignoring a number of factors there. I am certainly not versed in the subject but I do have questions just as a layman.
For starters efficiency involves the best use of fuel & running a diesel flat out is not so.
Furthermore, the vessel has an optimum hull speed dependent on conditions etc. which may not be flat out. There are other factors. An electric motor flat out in calm weather may have no reserve.. Running a diesel at lower RPM may well be better because of the reserve in heavy weather
One has to look at the overall picture & not just a narrow band. I am sure there are many other factors that the net zero whallas would like to suppress to support their claims. Of course that works both ways

My post #70 does attempt to simplify a multi-dimensional subject, but think perhaps you should reread it as answers some of your misconceptions.
Efficiency of an ICE like a diesel tends to be highest near its maximum output (the precise point depends on the power and consumption graphs).
Of course that does not mean that running a big engine on a displacement boat at full throttle is good for fuel consumption, because of the fact that drag increases hugely near hull speed. The diesel engine might be sized to punch into a F6 and waves, but that means it is running inefficiently at part throttle at 6 knots in light conditions.
Also ICE engines even at their best are not very efficient.

Take a typical 40 foot yacht - nowadays it will typically have a 40hp or more diesel. I don’t have my power graphs to hand (but I have them and have used them - also good ones on Oceanvolt website), but if I recall correctly probably only needs about 10hp cruising at 6 knots. So the already inefficient ICE at peak revs, is even less efficient at 25% of output. Fitting a 10hp diesel would make it more efficient and increase range in light weather - but of course would be dangerously short of peak power for extremis.

Electric motors are much more efficient at converting energy into drive. And most are pretty linear in their efficiency relative to speed. Hence, as seen in Teslas etc, can have a very powerful motor yet still very efficient pootling along (unlike say an equivalent 4 litre turbo diesel needed to get similar peak power in a car). So the yacht could have a 30kW (40hp) drive for short term peak power the same as the diesel, but it would be much more efficient running at hull speed (8kW / 10hp).
On a long trip, a 10kW diesel generator could be running when necessary, always at its optimum power point which would use much less fuel than a 40hp engine throttled back. Any excess power would recharge the batteries so the generator would cut out for a period till needed again.

So an electric drive could have more power reserve than a traditional diesel engine, and more efficiency.

There are of course other factors. Currently the big ones are
A) cost - as volumes currently tiny in marine market compared to cars
B) energy density - 1 litre of diesel contains about 10kWh of energy gross, 3kWh nett (due to ICE inefficiency)
C] current / voltage trade offs - most small yacht systems currently run at 48V which limits power to around 20kW before currents get out of hand for practicality, so need to move to higher voltages for efficiency (cars now 400-800V which would probably prohibit DIY fitting and maintenance on boats)

 

[trapper guy]

if you apply wind to a turbine there is inevitable going to be drag, which also equates to a loss of energy.
may as well just drop the turbine into the water, it would charge on tidal flow irrespective of wind.
placing the turbine behind an electric prop equals the regen people speak of, afterall, you are expending energy thrusting that water to the rear, why waste it?

That looks suspiciously like perpetual motion... If I read your bit right. Not the first line..
Like the motor running the generator, that charges the battery, that runs the motor, that....

I suspect you are ignoring drag..

why would i be ignoring the drag that i included in my comment???????

perpetual motion....that brings me to my main beef.
conservation of energy....
'the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant'

notice the operative words 'isolated system'
the law of conservation of energy makes NO statement about open systems.
and with all the wind and the waves and the tides surrounding a yacht, it is far from being an isolated system.

if you start off with x amount of energy yada yada.
but the wind tides and waves are energy that isnt included in your 'X' amount of starting energy, is it?

so IS IT perpetual motion? i think not.

 

[Dellquay13]

I actually think it has improved! It had a spell where there seemed to be less and less content and then a while where there seemed to be a clever move by the editor to get a “free” boat by documenting a renovation.

That latest “free boat for the editor” (purchased for just £1 in the first article) is now on apolloduck for £11k

 

[doug748]

ylop said:
"I actually think it has improved! It had a spell where there seemed to be less and less content and then a while where there seemed to be a clever move by the editor to get a “free” boat by documenting a renovation."


This idea arguably came from our very forum. About 20 years ago there was a discussion about working on old boats. I (and possibly others ) suggested that it would be a very good idea for PBO to obtain and old boat and renovate it. In this way products and ideas could be demonstrated and recommended or not, in a very elegant and useful manner.

I pitched the idea to the then editor, suggesting suggesting PBO obtain a cheap boat, I would do the work record it, write it up (fees were paid at that time) and the finished thing could be sold at a profit - it would pay for itself. The reply was dismissive, I remember one of Elaine Bunting's phrases:

"...........PBO has no budget for buying boats....."

Seemingly that was that. A couple of years later they bought their first old boat for restoration.


.

 

[Babylon]

Only very few people ever come up with interesting, innovative or truly creative ideas - lots of people are however ready and very willing to steal...

 

[Boathook]

That latest “free boat for the editor” (purchased for just £1 in the first article) is now on apolloduck for £11k

That might be a good purchase. It's had enough 'money' spent on it !

 

[Dellquay13]

That might be a good purchase. It's had enough 'money' spent on it !

It’s probably the only boat refit that will ever make a profit, as it’s likely a lot of the professional labour was done on a nod and a wink and positive publicity rather than ‘full market rates’

 

[Boathook]

It’s probably the only refurb boat that will ever make a profit, as it’s likely a lot of the professional labour was done on a nod and a wink and free advertising rather than ‘full market rates’

That's why I put 'money' the way I did.

 

[Dellquay13]

That's why I put 'money' the way I did.

And my ‘full market rates’

 

[dunedin]

Only very few people ever come up with interesting, innovative or truly creative ideas - lots of people are however ready and very willing to steal...

And even more to grumble - without any positive suggestions

 

[geem]

My post #70 does attempt to simplify a multi-dimensional subject, but think perhaps you should reread it as answers some of your misconceptions.
Efficiency of an ICE like a diesel tends to be highest near its maximum output (the precise point depends on the power and consumption graphs).
Of course that does not mean that running a big engine on a displacement boat at full throttle is good for fuel consumption, because of the fact that drag increases hugely near hull speed. The diesel engine might be sized to punch into a F6 and waves, but that means it is running inefficiently at part throttle at 6 knots in light conditions.
Also ICE engines even at their best are not very efficient.

Take a typical 40 foot yacht - nowadays it will typically have a 40hp or more diesel. I don’t have my power graphs to hand (but I have them and have used them - also good ones on Oceanvolt website), but if I recall correctly probably only needs about 10hp cruising at 6 knots. So the already inefficient ICE at peak revs, is even less efficient at 25% of output. Fitting a 10hp diesel would make it more efficient and increase range in light weather - but of course would be dangerously short of peak power for extremis.

On a long trip, a 10kW diesel generator could be running when necessary, always at its optimum power point which would use much less fuel than a 40hp engine throttled back. Any excess power would recharge the batteries so the generator would cut out for a period till needed again.

Does that really stack up? You are using a diesel engine to charge batteries to run an electric motor.
Taking my own boat, we have a 5KVA diesel generator. Running under full load it uses 2.1 l/hr according to the manufacturers handbook. Presumably your example of a 10kw generator will use more fuel.
Our 4.4L Perkins is a low revving diesel. It's peak torque is at 1200rpm. That is also our preferred cruising revs under engine. We get 6kts in flat water and we use 3.3 l/hr. If we drop the revs to 1000rpm, we use 2.5 l/hr. Only marginally more fuel consumption than our fully loaded 5kVA generator (30 year old Perkins). Would a 10KVA generator use more than 2.5 l/hr. A quick check on a modern Perkins generator and a 10kVA unit should use 3 l/hr, fully loaded, according to the literature. Where is the benefits?

 

[SaltIre]

Funny coincidence - "Guitar Player" magazine, which has been printed for 58 years (and is one of my favourites) has just announced the last print edition.

How sad. Are you still fretting about it?

 

[Poignard]

I used to enjoy PBO, and subscribed to it for many years, but eventually I found that there was little in the practical sections that I didn't already know, and I wasn't in the market for a new boat so reviews of them didn't interest me much.

The result was that I wasn't really reading it any more, just skimming through it.

So I stopped buying it.