Post deleted by danfoley

[AndrewB]

Re: Clearing in at Bermuda or Bahamas.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also like to ask a second question, does anyone know whether the Bahamas or Bermuda C & I check for clearing out papers, i.e the USA cruising permit when they clear you into their own countries? I know some countries insist on seeing the clearing out papers from the previous county whereas other's aren't interested at all and though I've been to Bermuda before I can't remember what the form was.

[/ QUOTE ]You don't need 'clearing out' papers (zarpe) to enter either Bahamas or US, not as a British yacht anyway. I don't know about Bermuda, but suspect not. Actually you are unlikely to get any from Bahamas, since they just require you to post back a slip when you leave (or did, anyway).

As Lizzie_B says, the Bahamas have introduced a US$300 cruising permit fee for medium/large yachts. It has put many people off from going there for a short visit.

 

[jimboaw]

Re: Clearing in at Bermuda or Bahamas.

And to add insult to injury it's CASH ONLY. However, Bahamas customs/coastguard/immigration do not have the manpower or technology to keep track of the huge number of boats (mostly US) in Bahamian waters. Picked up family there twice. Didn't clear in or out and paid nothing. I don't give two hoots for the rules and I honestly believe that to ignore them at every opportunity is a Cruisers duty!

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Dear Brian,
This may be a little late, but I have now heard back from the lovely Leticia at US Customs and Border Patrol. It would seem in our situation of having bought the boat in the states, that we have to purchase a 'user fee decal', not a cruising license. These can be bought on line from the CBP website. They cost $25 for the year and allow you to cruise the USA, Canada,Mexico and the 'nearby islands' a list of which is available on the CBP website. They are renewable each year, but unlike the 'cruising license there is no requirement to leave the US for a minimum of fifteen days and to provide proof of clearing customs in a foreign port in order to be able to renew. In fact they send you a postal reminder, rather like a car tax disc. The cruising licence is for boats arriving into the USA from foreign lands and you should apply for one at your port of entry.
With the decal, the skipper and crew are required to clear customs, not the boat so you would do this on arrival at the airport. You can use visa waiver, providing you don't over stay the ninety days. To have a decal your boat must be 30 feet or more in length. To order on line you have to be able to give a US name and address for delivery so you have to be in a marina and yard that will accept mail on your behalf.

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

This sounds very interesting - but how does the 'user fee decal' relate to paying state tax and registration on a boat bought in the US then?

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

That's a different question all together.
I can only say what US CBP have said for my particular situation, which has similarity with Brian.
My situation is that the boat was bought in Florida, and was exempt FL sales tax under the 90 day rule and moved to Alabama for refurbishment work.
As she is now British SSR registered and will have been out of state for 6months Florida Department of Revenue have told me it's alright to re enter Florida and they will recognise her British Registration as exempting her from Florida taxes.
We are going to keep the boat at a Marina in the Mouth of the Potomac until late Spring 2006, before shipping her home.
We intend to use the boat for a series of two week holidays with the boat being stored the rest of the time. I am British citizen and British resident.

Brian's situation is the same as he has purchased his boat in the US and not yet taken it outside the US and its neighbouring territories, although I do not know what his status is re Florida sales tax.
I would guess he has probably paid it as he is still in Florida!unless he has been exempted under the RRF clause.
If he has claimed RRF exemption(ie, put his boat prior to or at time of purchase in a Recognised Repair Facility-boatyard to you and me)he will become liable for Florida sales tax within 20days of launch unless he removes it from Florida for a minimum of six months and registers and pays tax on the boat in another state or country within 30 days.

The key to being able to use the decal would appear to be the fact that the vessel has not been taken outside the USA,Canada, Mexico or nearby islands.
My understanding from what CBP told me is that the minute you go further afield you need a cruising licence to re enter.

With regard to state law, it really is a potential minefield as different states operate different regimes and some have reciprocity agreements with other states and some don't.
The guy at Florida Department of revenue assured me that Virginia, Maryland and DC would not ask me to pay tax as the vessel is now under British registration and I will be paying tax on it's eventual return to UK, however, if I was to sell it in the US that would be a different matter.

To be honest, for the sake of $25 I'm almost tempted to get both, but I don't think/know if that's possible!
The one thing all this has taught me is to talk to a senior level official in each State's department of revenue, explain what you want to do, and comply with their written advice, and keep all the paperwork with you when you're on the boat! I've found them very helpful.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Mark, Great to see such informative posts, clear and unambigous

Personal favour requested, can you chop up the text into smaller chunks by hitting return twice in a while.

Not a personal comment or a flame, just a request that such useful information be more accessible. People who are really interested will read it anyway, but peeps who are scanning don't generally stop to read big chunks of text, and they might possibly be interested.

I offend too, when I'm flowing, then have to go back and edit post later, so it's not just you

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

My pleasure!! Hope that helps.

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

thanks for that Mark

I think we'll still bite the bullet and pay $2000 sales tax and register it in Virginia just incase we decide to sell it in the States in years to come.

Does Alabama not have state tax on boats?

As for registering twice - i really don't think it's a hanging offence and who is to know?

I didn't make myself clear - we are brits too - but for the forseeable future we see our cruising to be east coast USA and the caribbean. Registering there just seems easier all round. We can do SSR anytime later. - Dave

 

[BrendanS]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Excellent, thank you. Now you just have to remember to do it in future posts /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your posts are up there with Mirelle's in informative and useful and knowing subject. Nice to see someone research subject, then pass it on.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Yes Alabama does, but because we are SSR and have satisfied the Florida people that we will be paying tax (VAT) when return to UK we are not liable. I think if we were to resell in the USA, then we would be liable, but we have no intention of doing so.

I think in your case, where there is the possibility of selling in the USA you are probably wise to pay the tax now. However, paying sales tax, is not the same as registering in the state, and you can pay the sales tax and still be ssr registered. It might be worth considering as different states have different registration rules.

Some states will allow anyone to register their boat in that state, some will only allow registration if you have legal residency in the state, some states will expect registration if it is 'the principal state of use' (i.e. if you are resident in Alabama, but keep your boat permanently in Florida, FL will expect you to register). Also, some states require dual registry, so for example an american boat can be CoastGuard documented but still be required by some states to register with them as well, whereas others don't allow you to register with the state if you are CoastGuard documented. Some americans have been caught out by mistakenley thinking Coast Guard Documenting would exempt them from registration for all states, only to move their boat and find they're met with different rules in the new state.

This is another reason why we decided to SSR now as we were advised that a state would not expect a foreign flagged vessel to register with them, so it avoids the minefield of getting it wrong in one state or the other.

The other concern is around the question of reciprocity if you intend to move from state to state, as not all states recognise the rules and conventions of others.

The only advice I would give is for you to rough out an itinerary of your intentions and discuss it with the appropriate department in the state you're in, with someone of sufficient seniority to be able to make decisions on questions that aren't on their FAQ website.

I think you're right to pay the tax if you think you may wish to sell in the USA later.With hindsight I probably would have paid the Florida state sales tax, as I would have been saved a lot of stress and worry about getting the boat out of the state at a time when the yard overan on time because of the log jam of hurricane damaged boats, and then having to sail her out of state at a time of year when the weather patterns were less than ideal.
However, I would still go for SSR as it protects to some extent against the vagaries of different state laws. I think as long as you're moving around no state is going to declare you resident or principal state of usage, unless of course you have a permanent home ashore.

Being SSR'd won't affect your ability to sell in the states,as any purchaser will have to re register the boat with the state of his choice anyway. As long as you have all the paperwork, to show where the boat was bought and that you payed the tax it should be fine.
VIRGINIA where you are and we will be, is a 'principle state of useage zone.'Depending on the length of your boat, registration will cost either $37 or $45 for the year. However, it is also one of the states that forbids dual registration, so for example a US Coast Guard documented vessel would not be required to register in Virginia, neither would an SSR registered vessel. Principal state of usage is defined as being in state for more than 90 consecutive days. (see www.boatsafe.com/virginia as a good starting point).

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Thanks for the kind words, but I must say that I am not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as the Great Mirelle!!! He holdeth all my knowledge in a single hair of his nostril!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

It has just occurred to me, that if you are a British Citizen and planning to cruise outside US waters in the Caribean, there is a legal requirement for your vessel to be British Registered as I understand it.

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Is that right Mark? I've never come across that before.

After the info from you about User Decals we're now seriously thinking of going the SSR way. I'm just a bit worried then about the sales tax thing. The boat is in New York and the tax there is higher than Virginia and that hadn't been budgeted for.

You said though that you avoided (rather than evaded, of course) Florida tax on the basis that one day you would be taking your boat out of the states and paying VAT so I will look into that with New York.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

I think that you will find that it is the nationality of the boat that matters, not the owner or crew that determines where the boat itself is entitled to roam to. So, if is a boat domiciled in USA and you maintain it on a state register, I believe that you will find that it can cruise anywhere any US domiciled, non documented but state registered boat can regardless of your own citizenship. My understanding is that state registration allows international roaming, that being accepted for entry by many countries (I am told that the UK does not, but I stand to be corrected on that), but obviously a documented boat is advisable.

If the boat's owner's citizenship does not entitle the boat to be documented in the USA but it is desired that the boat go onto a register of ships in some other country, then it has to go on the country's register where that entitlement exists. In a British citizen's case, that would normally be the British register unless the boat was placed in the ownership of a foreign domiciled company in the country of the desired register with the company owned by the British citizen (some exceptions exist where ownership is freer eg among a few Commenwealth countries) - but that hardly worthwhile for a small yacht.

It may be that the USA has some recent rules for clearing involving crew citizenship and the boat's nationality but I am not aware of any and would find it strange if it were to be so. As always, the best thing when the situation is not clear cut ie the vessel is not on a register of ships (or documented in the USA case), is to get the advice of the relevant government authorities (country of departure and that of arrival and in writing).

John

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

If you sail in international waters, my understanding is that you must fly the maritime ensign to which the vessel's owner is entitled. This usually is qualified for by place of official residency and citizenship. If you're British Citizen then the simplest thing to do is SSR register.

New York is a non reciprocal state. If you register your boat in New York you will have take and pass the New York Boat operation certificate. You will still have to do this if you are registered another state, but remain in NY for more than 90 consecutive days.

If you are SSR registered and intend doing some cruising outside US waters in the Caribean I would get a cruising licence and renew it each time you go to the Caribean.

A common theme amongst most states seems to be the 90 consecutive day limit. Not a problem if you intend to be moving around, but it is vitaly important to keep receipts from marinas and boatyards for fuel and dockage, and make sure boat's name, number and ideally HIN are on the receipts.

A friend sailing in the states since june last year has only ever been asked to produce his passport, ssr cert and bill of sale/title, which shows he paid sales tax in Illinois. However, every State has the odd water Nazi and should you fall foul of one of them it's important to be able to prove that you have been out of state.

In the Chesapeake area, where I will be berthing this is not a problem because there are a number of state borders on the bay, so it is easy to leave.

From what I can glean, NY seems to be a law unto itself, and from what you have explained of your situation I would pay the sales tax,SSR and move about keeping your receipts.

I have been unable to find out if NY operates any exemption deals with sales tax like Florida does, but I would think it likely. You would need to talk to the appropriate authority. If you use the www.Boatsafe.com link and type New York into the search it will give some phone numbers and addresses to get started with.

If they do a sales tax deal such as Florida does you may find that you can claim exemption, move the boat to Virginia within a set time period and pay Virginia sales tax and SSR it. You certainly could if you had bought he boat in Florida and were moving it to Virginia.

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

You are correct John, the only thing is, the US do not require a boat to be 'documented' and non-US citizens cannot document a boat.

So it comes down to what non-US citizens want to do long term.

In the case of Mark (lizzie_b) he has medium / long term plans to return to the UK with the boat so this 'user decal' seems to be the appropriate route so that he can cruise there with SSR registration.

We are only starting out having just bought in the US and have no plans to return to the UK - too bloody cold and expensive!

We're trying to be prudent and stay on the right side of the US authorities incase we want to sell later in the US. If you haven't paid State tax I think there could be problems later. It's not very likely that we would go this route as I can't see in the forseeable future being able to sell our boat for more in the US than we could in Europe.

We are therefore just juggling options, and if the SSR route with user decal makes life easier and allows the boat to stay in the US without cruising permits (which according to Mark isn't applicable to us) then that's great. We may go this way.

Being Federal and each state having it's own quirks makes SSR even more attractive.

Having chatted to brokers in Florida, Annapolis and Rhode Island, they all warn about the hassle of registering in one of the no boat tax or low boat tax states (like Rhode Island and Delaware) and then cruising to states that apply tax. They are always on the look out to grab you and we don't need that.

Thats why we were thinking Virginia - it's a $2000 maximum sales tax there and then you don't look like a tax evader.

The only thing with Virginia is you have to pay both a registration fee of $37 and a 'property tax', but that isn't much at $0.01 / $1000 of the lowest 'book value' of the boat.

These forums are great though! Very informative. You can get conflicting advice even from 'officials' and if others have actually done it it's a great help to those looking into it.

We should start another SSB thread! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

I could really confuse you now! The boat just happens to be in NY, it is documented with the Florida coast guard and by the stickers in the window it's been registered there for the last 3 years. I've been 'non-resident for tax purposes' from the UK since 1982!

SSR shouldn't be a problem though eh? Or is it? Or does it (hopefully) mean that I can bring it to the UK as 'household possessions' and not pay VAT on it?

Sorry..... I'll get me coat!

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

I think to be on a US flagged vessel, with only state registration, not national, and with a British Citizenship is just introducing an unnecessary potential area for some official to cause you grief over.

I would agree,that if you buy a vessel in the states, pay sales tax and register it with a state, remaining in US waters then it is irrelevant if you fly a US or a British Ensign, but as SSR is easily and cheaply available it seems good sense to cover all bases in one go.

But as you say, it is imperative that you check with each individual state's requirement. Even US citizens get hassled by the authorities of states they are visiting, even their home state if they are coastguard documented.
Last summer a Floridian friend of mine was hauled over and detained by the local state water nazi because he wasn't displaying state registration numbers. It was not until the officer concerned had a discussion with the guy's lawyer that he accepted that US documented boats are not required to display state numbers!!!

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

The qualification for SSR, isn't necessarily just tax residency. It's also about where you have right of 'domicile'
As I said in an earlier post, I would pay the sales tax if I was doing it again as with the benefit of hindsight I don't feel it was worth the effort and stress to get the exemption.
If the boat you are buying is CoastGuard Documented, it is imperative that you make sure that the current owner returns the documentation to the CoastGuard and has it un documented, otherwise you legally cannot SSR it.
If the boat is State registered in Florida, again it is really important that you-
a. Check all Florida taxes and fees have been paid up to date.

b. Ensure that the boat has been de registered in Florida, or somewhere down the line you may find a bill arriving for arrears of registration dues and a fine for non payment of registration (There is a guy in the Catalina owners assosciation who is still having problems over this sort of thing).

c. Make sure you know if the state of principal use where you register the boat has reciprocity agreements or not as you may have to take their qualifications if they don't.

I would agree with the advice of your brokers that it is best to keep things like sales tax and registration simple, which is why, if you are entitled to SSR you might as well use it (especially as we Brits are quite popular over there at the moment), if you intend to go outside US territorial waters and then return.

Where are you resident?

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

It has just occured to me that if the vessel is still Coastguard Documented as you say, you will not be allowed to register it in Virginia until it is un-documented as Virginia is one of those states that prohibits state registration of documented boats (whereas NY insists that you register with them even if you are documented)

The other thing you need to check if the vessel is Florida State registered is if it is also NY registered.
If it is not NY registered you need to find out how long the boat has been in NY.
If it has been their for more than 90 consecutive days you will become liable for compulsory NY registration and I would guess be forced to pay NY sales tax as you have to show you have paid sales tax in a state in order to NY register.
If this is the case you need to clarify with the dealer exactly how to proceed. I guess one way might be for the seller to NY register, then your 90days will start ticking from the time of completing the sale.
(JUST THINK! ONE DAY THE EU WILL BE LIKE THIS TOO)!