Post deleted by danfoley

[DaveNTL]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

I'm still domiciled UK - i emmigrated to south africa in 1982, left in 85, worked in the arabian gulf since then. I just changed my passport, two visits to the states back, they raised an eyebrow at the United Arab Emirates residence visa, asked me questions, but as you have said before, so long as you're up front with them they're very nice.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

I think to be on a US flagged vessel, with only state registration, not national, and with a British Citizenship is just introducing an unnecessary potential area for some official to cause you grief over.

I certainly agree that putting the boat on a register is the easiest thing and did not intend to infer otherwise.

On the flag thing, as far as I know there is nothing in the US Flag Code which prohibits a non citizen flying the US flag and there are no penalties for misuse of it (although states may have other requirements I doubt that these federal ones of right and penalty would be over ruled). Therefore a non citizen on a US boat, on state register not documented, as the owner would seem to be entitled to fly the US flag should he wish to do so (is actually not required to fly any flag while in US waters).

Your suggestion that If you sail in international waters, my understanding is that you must fly the maritime ensign to which the vessel's owner is entitled." is not strictly correct because the actual requirement is that the vessel flies the flag of its own nationality (which will normally be the nationality or one of the nationalities of the majority owner, but many owners are entitled to fly the maritime ensigns of many nations either through citizenship or other). Also, most registers do not require residency in the case of the majority owner being a person - just citizenship and a "representative person" ordinarily in the country of registry (UK is like that).

So, after all that the only question is likely to be whether on arrival in a foreign port a state registered USA vessel would be regarded as having USA nationality or the nationality of its owner (who, of course, may not even be aboard). I suspect strongly that the boat would be regarded as USA but that it may not be offered the protection of USA in case of difficulties regarding the boat as a documented boat would be (but might find that applies, in principle, to USA owned undocumented boats too).

Again, I am not recommending that this is the way to proceed, just responding to the question that was raised. As we are all saying, and perhaps all the foregoing demonstrates the need, always get the view of the relevant authority in writing if any doubt. No western country is likely to jump all over you if you get it wrong but followed instructions /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Placing the vessel on a register is the safe way but not necessarily the cheapest - I have been involved in a number of cases where a vessel (commercial) changing ownership and domicile may take several nationalities while being repositioned.

John

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

I was talking about the situation when you leave US waters. I agree there is no requirement to even fly an ensign in US waters, just as there is no requirement to fly an ensign (or even be registered) in the UK. It is when you go into international waters and visit other countries that I would see the potential for problems to arise.

I don't understand what you're other point is saying. I did not say residency was the only issue, I was responding to N's comment that he was no longer resident in the UK for tax purposes, and pointing out that was not the only criteria.
British pleasure craft registration is determined not by where the boat is bought or kept, but by a variety of factors, the primary ones concern issues of citizenship and residency qualifications.

The friend I mentioned earlier who bought his boat in Illinois, is in fact a German Citizen, but is SSR registered. He qualifies because he has established residency in the UK.

US documenting- ( their equivalent of 'National' Registration) for recreational vessels is citizenship based and is recommended for vessels sailing overseas as providing internationally acceptable evidence of nationality overseas of which state (eg Illinois reg) does not provide any guarantee, and will not necessarily be acceptable to other countries.
The reason why I raised the question of national registration is because N expressed his intention to sail into international waters and then return to the US.
You seem to be saying exactly what I was saying- I used the phrase 'maritme ensign to which the vessel's owner is entitled' if he is entitled to more than one, then that's great, he has a choice.
For example someone with dual citizenship may be entitled to fly more than one. Many citizen's of former commonwealth countries may find themselves in a position to fly more than one, but it will be an ensign to which they are entitled.
From the information N has given he would appear not to be entitled to fly a US ensign for international voyaging.
He may be entitled to fly a South African Ensign if he wishes. He would have to check what their requirements are.
As such, I feel it would make sense to SSR in anticipation of the day he goes foriegn from the US.
If he is going to remain in any one state for more than that state's transient limit (most seem to be 90days) a belt and braces approach would be to register in that state as well, with the caveat that he should check and see if he will then have to take that state's boat handling tests, as he certainly would in New York.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

You will find that most people are entitled to fly any nations flag they like on their boat without fear but that they will not find that they can put their boat on the register in those countries. It is the nationality of the boat that counts, a subtle but important difference. The concept of "the flag" in ship/boat registration is actually in reference to the terminology of "flagging" the vessel, ie registering the vessel and has nothing to do with the owner's flag or rights to it. "The flag that the owner is entitled to" translates as the register(s) the owner, whether person or corporate, is entitled to put his/their boat on, not the flag(s) he/it is entitled to themselves fly.

Re your I don't understand what you're other point is saying.

The other point was, in fact, to do with international waters - if it wasn't clear then I guess that it doesn't matter.

Just tried to be helpful, as is an area I work in from time to time, not get into examining the entrails of the goat.

John

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Yes, I can fly the flag of any nation I want from my boat, be it the Cornish Flag or the Welsh Dragon. However, when you go foreign you are also legally required to fly the flag of the vessel's state of registration and carry documentary evidence of your entitlement to do so. Therefore if NautiBusby goes foreign he will be legally required to have the vessel on a national register to which he is entitled to be entered, and to fly the flag of that country when he enters the territorial waters of a foriegn country. He will also be required to have the registration papers showing owner's entitlement to be on that register.

If, as some people are, the owner is entitled to registration in more than one national register, he must choose only one of those as a vessel cannot legally be on more than one national register at any one time.

He would be ill advised to sail into Guadelope without having his boat registered on a national register to which he is entitled and not flying the flag of that nation.
The exception would be if he was entitled to French registry and entered the boat on the french register, he would then not be required to fly the French Flag in Guadelope's waters.
He is certainly entitled to British Registry, and may be entitled to South African. He is not entitled to American, but if he wants to put an American flag on his boat in addition to the flag of his national registry he can do so, but is likely to cause himself some confusion/hassle with local officials if it is not done in a way that makes it obvious which is the vessels flag of registery.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

I will give this one more go Lizzie_B but I suspect that you will not understand or just want to dissect the goats entrails from a position of little understanding. It is also getting a long way away from the original intent of the thread.

You seem to be of two mistaken beliefs:

1. That the terms "the flag" and "flag to which the owner is entitled" refer directly to the bit of cloth that one puts on a flagpole and is something to do with the rights of the person we normally regard as the owner of the boat to such pieces of cloth. And;

2. That the register that a boat can go on is constrained by the citizenship or other natural right of the person that we normally regard as the owner of the boat.

So, addressing these:

1.

The terms "flag", "flagging", and entitlements to to a flag do not refer to the bit of cloth that people may or may not be entitled to hang on a flagpole somewhere. "To flag" a boat means to place it on a Register of Ships and any entitlements regarding the word flag are to do with what registers the boat is entitled to go onto. There are no owner rights to a cloth type flag that are a precondition for entry to a register. Entry on the register does incur a duty for the boat to fly a particular piece of cloth type flag, but that also has no link whatsoever to the bits of cloth the person we normally regard as the owner may or may not be entitled to fly. Which leads onto;

2.

The Register that a boat can go onto is not normally constrained by the nationality or other natural rights of the person who we generally regard as its owner. In fact boats are almost always able to take up one of many nationalities, and mostly always many more than the person we regard as their owner ever could.

The easiest way is to give an example and for the sake of an easy and common example I will use the case of a superyacht and an imaginary register - small boats can do the same, but I want to avoid the possibility of picky downstream dismemberment of what I am saying from the situation that some registers do not allow small boats domiciled elsewhere on them (and in the case of the USA even for its citizens boats domiciled in the USA), and from it is usually not worthwhile for small boats (but some find that it is). I will use an imaginary register to save possible picky dismemberment from subsequent analysis of its particular rules if I do not match my case exactly to them.

So we have a superyacht owned by a person who has paid for its construction, pays for its running costs out of his own pocket and is in ultimate control of its operations. He is a citizen of, lets say, a country called Big Country. But it suits his needs, whether financial or operational, to not place the vessel on the register in Big Country. He finds that another country called Little Country has a register whose rules and domicile suit him just fine. So what he does is that he registers a corporate in Little Country and places the boat into the "ownership" of that corporate. To all intents and purposes he remains the "owner", he has the same control over the vessel as before, he still pays for its care and operation and he can liquidate the company and take the vessel back or sell the vessel out of the company and take the proceeds for himself. He is still, in the terms we normally use, "the owner". However, he does not have any rights of nationality or anything else in "Little Country" apart from those normally accorded to an alien. He may never visit or live in "Little Country" and it may very well be that "Little Country's" register of ships is actually managed in a country other than "Little Country".

Now the real "owner", if we wish to get pedantic, is the corporate created to "own" the boat, however, you will find that it is just a manilla folder in a lawyer or some other person's office in "Little Country" and did not own or have any rights to a flagpole to fly a flag on, nor a piece of cloth called a flag as a precondition to having "its" boat placed on the register.

So there we have it the boat can take up one of many nationalities and our imaginary one is now sailing the seas with the "nationality" of Little Country and must abide by the legislation of Little Country, and the "owner" on board who is a national of Big Country. Neither he nor the boat may ever get to go to Little Country and the only one of the two that has any rights in Little Country, other than as an alien, is the boat. The boat will also be regarded by the authorities of Big Country as a foreign boat with no local rights other than those normally accorded a foreign boat even though its "owner" is a national of Big Country.

The boat will also usually fly the flag of Little Country because that is the country that it is "flagged" in. Usually the register requires the flag of Little Country to be flown all the time when underway, or at least some of the time eg typically when in the waters of a foreign country (including those of Big Country) and when entering or leaving harbour in Little Country. In between time the "owner" may be able to fly whatever "flag he is entitled to" but that flag is nothing to do with what register the vessel may be on or is entitled to be on.

Perhaps you already understood all that, but if so I have no idea what you are questioning, why you do not understand some of what I have previously said and why you make the claims that you do. As I said, I do work from time to time with vessel owners and registers ("flags"), both of whom seem to regard me as knowing what I am talking about, so really have no desire to continue arguing the matter out with yourself.

John

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Yes, I know all that. That is what I said, but as I said before, I was responding specifically to Nauti Busby's situation as he was unfolding it. We have both said the same thing. So let's stop going round in circles. What I said I didn't understand in one of your posts, was precisely that you seemed to be repeating what I said whilst saying I was wrong!I was just trying to be specific to N's comments and questions. Any way, sometimes it's good to gnaw over an old bone, tones up the gums and gives one a reason to stay on for that extra pint (not that we need one).
My boat is a cat. Perhaps you should meet!

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

safe to come out now? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

come on lads! it's only a chat forum!

right, I'm doing SSR then, not paying tax in the US cos I'm exporting it (one day, maybe), I won't get hassle if i get the User Decal and I have to look for an appropriate red duster for me nice shiny blue Nauticat.

I also have to swat up the incantation for the name change and check if 'Old Trafford' is a allowed as a home port. Salford Keys won't have quite the same ring to it.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: USA Immigration - Boaty.

Re USA Tax- don't assume New York or Virginia will behave in the same way as Florida. The fact that NY is a non reciprocal state, and expects documented US boats to register with the state(the complete opposite of Virginia) inclines me to think that they probably will be fairly strict about you paying sales tax.Espescially if you have no immediate plans to go to the UK. As I said, with the benefit of hindsight, I think I would pay the Florida tax if I was doing it again as I don't think it was worth all the stress and hassle to avoid paying it.

Re shiny red duster- if you have a blue boat get a blue duster(I think they make them out of retired admirals' worn out yachting blazers)!! The Yanks won't know if you're 'entitled' to wear it or not!!!!

PS. Don't need a 'Home Port' for SSR. You can put what you like on the boat- how about 'Boatham of Old Trafford'