Portuguese residency - current situation - advice needed

[Sailfree]

Nortada, reason for wanting an NIF is to get a health service number in the future.

We were going to wait until we got to the Algarve and change our Residencia address. But the NIF number does not have to be linked to a Portuguese address if you do it through an EU address.

- W

I think you need Portuguese residency for health registration but not for NIF.

We have had visitors that have had excellent treatment here for only the registration cost - some €14 IIRC with chest X rays etc BUT I think that will not cover ongoing treatment say for cancer.

 

[webcraft]

I think you need Portuguese residency for health registration but not for NIF.

But do you need an NIF for health registration? My impression was that you did.

- W

 

[Beneteau381]

But do you need an NIF for health registration? My impression was that you did.

- W

yes

 

[Graham376]

Dont think you are correct.

When we were buying our apartment in Nazare we had to first have a NIF before purchase. Nazare Finacas issued both me and wife with NIF documents with our UK address. There are plenty of people that are residents of UK yet buy property and cards here for the period they satay here and hence need a NIF to achieve this.

Did you have residence then or, just buying property?

Having a UK address if only wanting to own a property is fine but the tax questions come from people who have been granted or are applying for residence. 5 year temporary residence requires the recipient to reside in country for (IIRC) 183 days/year so, why would they need to have a UK tax address? We cease to be EU citizens in 33 days and as third country citizens will come under different rules and residence will be cancelled or renewal refused for those caught just working the system - the majority, who are only wanting to have an extended stay with no proven intention of settling.

 

[Graham376]

We have had visitors that have had excellent treatment here for only the registration cost - some €14 IIRC with chest X rays etc BUT I think that will not cover ongoing treatment say for cancer.

Any EU citizen visitor with an EHIC can get treatment for the same cost as a local, which is only a few euro. Everything I've read so far says after 31/12 private health insurance will be required for visitors, as well as return or onward ticket etc. Visit Europe from 1 January 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

[webcraft]

Re. The 183 days/year, is this in any 365 day period, in any calendar year or in any tax year?

- W

 

[nortada]

Did you have residence then or, just buying property?

Having a UK address if only wanting to own a property is fine but the tax questions come from people who have been granted or are applying for residence. 5 year temporary residence requires the recipient to reside in country for (IIRC) 183 days/year so, why would they need to have a UK tax address? We cease to be EU citizens in 33 days and as third country citizens will come under different rules and residence will be cancelled or renewal refused for those caught just working the system - the majority, who are only wanting to have an extended stay with no proven intention of settling.

As you know even though a resident in Portugal, some pension income may be taxed at source by HMRC so makes life a lot easier if they can contact you at an address in the U.K.

Knowing Portugal, I suspect the treatment of those found ‘to be working the system’ will depend on the mood of the official on the day. Applauded for supporting the Portuguese economy, banishment or imprisonment - take your pick.

Fortunately, Portugal no longer practices execution.

 

[greeny]

It will be interesting when all those "working the system" people, who have only taken residency to have long extended holidays over here, get their first tax return demand from the finances department. Have they thought this residency option through thoroughly? - I don't think so.
Solicitors and accountants are going to make a mint sorting this out for these pseudo "expats" I think.

 

[nortada]

It will be interesting when all those "working the system" people, who have only taken residency to have long extended holidays over here, get their first tax return demand from the finances department. Have they thought this residency option through thoroughly? - I don't think so.
Solicitors and accountants are going to make a mint sorting this out for these pseudo "expats" I think.

I suspect it could all come home to roost when it is established that they are failing to spend the majority of their year in Portugal.

This could come as early as when they are interviewed for their biometric residency permit or later when their temporary residency expires.

On the tax front, providing that they are ‘not earning’ in Portugal and paying taxes elsewhere, with the help of a friendly accountant, it won’t be too expensive (less than €200 annually) to put in a nil tax return. An English friend of mind has submitted her own Portuguese annual tax, free, with no recourse to any Portuguese advice.

As with others before, if the Autoridae Tributaria e Aduaneira administrators are satisfied that they have no income from within Portugal, they may well advise there is no need for a nil tax return - saving work on all sides.

It will all come down to the official on the day.

Back in the U.K. ref. tax returns, it is possible to have a similar arrangement with HMRC.

 

[Graham376]

As you know even though a resident in Portugal, some pension income will always be taxed at source by HMRC so makes life a lot easier if they can contact you at an address in the U.K.

Nothing to do with HMRC, my comments were about giving the Portuguese tax man an address in the UK, when the person concerned has just told the authorities they are resident in Portugal and provided their address there to obtain official residence. Still, if they want to cast doubt on their actual residence, it's their problem if/when it gets cancelled or renewal refused.

 

[Graham376]

Re. The 183 days/year, is this in any 365 day period, in any calendar year or in any tax year?

- W

Portuguese tax year is a calendar year and you need to be seen to be in country for half of it.

 

[webcraft]

Portuguese tax year is a calendar year and you need to be seen to be in country for half of it.

Thanks for clearing that up. We are thinking 3 months Algarve, 3 months Canaries, 3 months Madeira/Azores and 3 months Scotland for the next couple of years, then take it from there.

In the meantime, the way the engine installation is going Christmas in Cascais is looking quite likely!

We will show our Residency certs as proof of address when getting our NIF next week.

- W

 

[Graham376]

It will be interesting when all those "working the system" people, who have only taken residency to have long extended holidays over here, get their first tax return demand from the finances department. Have they thought this residency option through thoroughly? - I don't think so.
Solicitors and accountants are going to make a mint sorting this out for these pseudo "expats" I think.

Not just the tax returns, many of those who lied to obtain residence and think their future is secure are I suspect pi**ing in the wind. At the end of new resident's temporary residence they will have to apply for permanent status and be able to prove they have spent 5 x 183 days in country and are established with a proper address and utility bills, have funds and possibly language skills. As they will no longer be EU citizens, there will be closer scrutiny and most likely won't have the option of another 5 years temporary so, loss of free health care, EHIC etc. and back to 90/180.

 

[nortada]

Nothing to do with HMRC, my comments were about giving the Portuguese tax man an address in the UK, when the person concerned has just told the authorities they are resident in Portugal and provided their address there to obtain official residence. Still, if they want to cast doubt on their actual residence, it's their problem if/when it gets cancelled or renewal refused.

But my response (#409) was to Greeny.

It is normally recognised that there are a significant number of benefits keeping a U.K. mailing address.

As they must have a Portuguese address, why would they give their UK address to the Portuguese tax man

 

[Graham376]

But my response was to Greeny.

So why did you quote me in your reply?

 

[webcraft]

Not just the tax returns, many of those who lied to obtain residence and think their future is secure are I suspect pi**ing in the wind. At the end of new resident's temporary residence they will have to apply for permanent status and be able to prove they have spent 5 x 183 days in country and are established with a proper address and utility bills, have funds and possibly language skills. As they will no longer be EU citizens, there will be closer scrutiny and most likely won't have the option of another 5 years temporary so, loss of free health care, EHIC etc. and back to 90/180.

If I get 5 years I will be quite happy. Who can see further ahead these days? I hope to have a (Scottish) EU passport by then.

But who knows!? I may be totally committed to Portugal by then.

- W

 

[nortada]

Not just the tax returns, many of those who lied to obtain residence and think their future is secure are I suspect pi**ing in the wind. At the end of new resident's temporary residence they will have to apply for permanent status and be able to prove they have spent 5 x 183 days in country and are established with a proper address and utility bills, have funds and possibly language skills. As they will no longer be EU citizens, there will be closer scrutiny and most likely won't have the option of another 5 years temporary so, loss of free health care, EHIC etc. and back to 90/180.

I see your list of requirements for people to obtain permanent residency in the future is getting longer.

From my research, yes you have to have met the minimum time in country requirement (interestingly, having been given permanent residency, this requirement no longer exists) and yes, you have to have a contact address but do not have to own property.

Ironically, for the honest players amongst us, the Schengen SIS element of the ETIAS may go a long way to establishing time spent in country.

As to language skills, I confirmed with the authorities that unlike citizens, residents do not have to demonstrate language skills. Even for citizenship the bar is fairly low and gets lower with age. At my age even my poor Portuguese passes muster.

Solvency, if checked, your annual income has to be above a level, whereby you could qualify for benefits in Portugal. Fairly sure that the basic U.K. State Pension exceeds this requirement. Not sure we could live on an OAP in either Portugal or the U.K.?

You haven’t mentioned healthcare but as the majority will be on an OAP and the S1 scheme, the U.K. will be funding their healthcare so could be a nice little earner Portugal.

Agree at the end of their 5 years, as things stand, they are unlikely to get another 5 years but who knows

On the other side of the debate, living in a vibrant sailing community for many years, I would go so far as to say, the majority do not want permanent residency in Portugal or the EU. Rather, they want less than 5 years to fulfill their dream before returning to the U.K.

Temporary residency more than meets their aspirations.

 

[nortada]

So why did you quote me in your reply?

Did lIn my #414, I referenced you, but quote you, where. ?

To leave no doubt, I am amending my #414.

Nevertheless, I will always use a good ‘quote’ if I see one.?

 

[nortada]

If I get 5 years I will be quite happy. Who can see further ahead these days? I hope to have a (Scottish) EU passport by then.

But who knows!? I may be totally committed to Portugal by then.

- W

You are voicing the views of many here about.

Scottish (EU) passport, I wish you well and if given the opportunity would vote for you - but enough of this thread drift.

Sorry to hear you are still stuck in Cascais. I am sure many will agree, there are much nicer places.

So are you still on passage for The Canaries or has the Portugal bug bitten

 

[nortada]

Thanks for clearing that up. We are thinking 3 months Algarve, 3 months Canaries, 3 months Madeira/Azores and 3 months Scotland for the next couple of years, then take it from there.

In the meantime, the way the engine installation is going Christmas in Cascais is looking quite likely!

We will show our Residency certs as proof of address when getting our NIF next week.

- W

Now you are a Portuguese Resident, the world (or least the EU) is your oyster, for at least the next 5 years