PLEASE HELP! Boat Seized in Spain by Pirates (Policemen)

Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
Both are subject to the need to re-register cars, boats (whatever) that we have been talking about, within a 30 day period of the 'import' of the vessel. However, import is defined as after 182 day in case 1; and immediately in case 2.

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But IESDMT becomes due on arrival, OF THE BOAT. The tax-residency part is only there for use when the date of arrival of the boat can not be determined by other means (marina reports or receipts, etc). Then it is the date of start of tax-resident status of the owner that becomes the date on which the tax becomes payable (30 days grace, of course). A complicating factor is that a non-resident can apply for a tourist-registration, but I don't know what addition loops and twists that would bring to the table.

Note: owning 'an establishment' in Spain makes one tax-resident. The meaning of "establishment" has not been clearly determined yet. Some think it refers to a business of some sort (bar, restaurant, shop, or whatever), but I am more inclined, for other reasons, to consider holding any property as being sufficient to trigger tax-residency status, but I could be wrong.
 
Re: IEDMT

This law is framed as applying to " means of transport".
It makes no sense in respect to boats and aeroplanes, they are too few to provoke serious action, but it is clearly aimed at cars.
Many ex-pats use cars registered in their home countries. This can be legal, if they are in Spain for less than 183 days, or not . In the case of , say a French, Belgian, Dutch or German visitor, it is impossible, in these days of open frontiers, to prove the 183 rule.
So a 30 day rule, which can be en be enforced by the Guardia Civil driving round the ex-pat districts and recording foreign license plates, makes some sense.
The " fine " for a second hand car would be about the same as the costs of re-registering it as a Spanish car, so most sensible people would do that.
The trouble with Spanish laws is that they are applied according to the whim of the person in charge of the district, so a bored and energetic officer in a place with a marina full of yachts owned by " rich estranjeros" may well start a local campaign.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The tax on an old vessel would be pitifully low, and probably not worth the hassle of collecting it. Something else altogether is a 2009 14m Sunseeker Mobo worth "x+lots of zeroes" Euros. The tax then becomes interesting, at 12 % or so.

[/ QUOTE ]I worked it out that the tax on our 1999 Nauticat 42 would be very expensive, using the figures and formulae published.
 
Re: IEDMT

It might not make any sense to you, but it obviously does to the Spanish because they have introduced the tax and they are enforcing it.
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
...but I am more inclined, for other reasons, to consider holding any property as being sufficient to trigger tax-residency status, but I could be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you must be wrong as you cannot be 'tax resident' in more than one country, surely? Thousands of foreigners own properties in Spain and have been encouraged to do so. Of course householders are liable for taxes (local taxes and community charges, capital gains tax on the sale?) but that does not make them 'tax resident' which is a very different thing.
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PWC)
KPMG
Baker & McKenzie
Any one of these will easily be able to explain the rules and issues involved here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it the case though, that any of these illustrious firms are more than capable of authoritatively telling their clients what the law says, taxation or otherwise, in Spain or many other countries. And how one law, regulation or provision will interact with another. Etcetera.

But what they may not be able to provide, big and illustrious as they are, is actual dirty hands-on experience of this law (these laws?) in practice: interpretation, application and enforcement in the specific case of boats, in Spain, maybe also between the individual autonomous regions. And successfully countering incorrect demands for tax or other examples of wrong action. I would have thought that the chances of a boat owner in a Spanish marina deciding to go see PWC (etc.) about their boat tax problem, to be remote.

Unless it's a pretty big boat, a pretty rich owner and a pretty big tax bill - Puerto Banus or Sotogrande come to mind /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Comment?
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
I think you must be wrong as you cannot be 'tax resident' in more than one country, surely?

[/ QUOTE ]
You can be a tax resident of more than one country and I was a tax resident in two countries at the same time when I moved to England.
 
Re: IEDMT

I think the rules were not made for yachties. They were made for normal citizens.

A tourist or a business man goes to another country with the intention of not staying very long. So the rules for them permit import and export of personal possessions and motor vehicles without paying additional taxes or duties.

Someone who goes with the intention to live and work in another country has other rules, like the requirement to register (it used to be within 10 days, but maybe its longer now) and get a residence permit. Being resident and working, its logical that that person pays all the appropriate national and local taxes. That includes taxes on motor vehicles, which have to be registered in the host country, typically within a year. And they have to change their driving license to a local one within a year. In some countries (like Belgium and I guess Spain) there is a tax on luxury goods, like boats. I bought my boat in Holland and imported it to Belgium where I am resident and have to pay this tax as a resident in Belgium. It's normal, it's the law.

Or course there are always dodgers. I know one Belgian who bought his boat in the UK, left it SSR registered there and keeps it in Holland to avoid registering and paying the tax on it. I know of people who play the 183 day game of living in three EU countries, each for less than 183 days, and thereby avoid a lot of other taxes. Naturally, the authorities are not too keen on this behaviour. So when they come across someone who lives in a caravan (or boat), with no permanent and registered abode in their country, and who claims not to be subject to local and national taxes, they get suspicious. Especially if these "tourists" then admit to have been in the country for over 183 days.

So clearly, to me, someone who sails into Spain and stays no longer than 30 days (or stretch that to maybe 90 days) can reasonably claim to be a tourist. Someone who sails in and stays for more than 183 days, does not look so much like a tourist any more.

There is also the small issue of asking before hand. I gather in Norway, if you want to leave your boat to overwinter there and return for some further summer sailing, it is very advisable to talk to the Norwegian customs and excise in advance. Otherwise, they might think you have stayed in Norway all year and therefore have taken up residence (and be subject to taxes). I could see how this might also apply in Spain.
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
I think you must be wrong as you cannot be 'tax resident' in more than one country, surely?

[/ QUOTE ] Within the EU, true. But the twist in Spain is that if you are taxable in Spain through business activities (and you'll be familiar with the fine definitions pointed out in tax guide for foreign nationals - including the use of the word 'establishment') Then the transport you use in Spain has to be re-registered as soon as it enters the country, with a 30 day period of grace to sort things out.

Pity the live aboard sailmaker who wan't wide awake to this little matter . . . who's cash payment was detected by a tax man.

JimB
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PWC)
KPMG
Baker & McKenzie
Any one of these will easily be able to explain the rules and issues involved here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it the case though, that any of these illustrious firms are more than capable of authoritatively telling their clients what the law says, taxation or otherwise, in Spain or many other countries. And how one law, regulation or provision will interact with another. Etcetera.

But what they may not be able to provide, big and illustrious as they are, is actual dirty hands-on experience of this law (these laws?) in practice: interpretation, application and enforcement in the specific case of boats, in Spain, maybe also between the individual autonomous regions. And successfully countering incorrect demands for tax or other examples of wrong action.

[/ QUOTE ]I beg to differ. A very large percentage of these firm's clients have yachts, so this is a very common issue for them. They are very used to deal with tax issues/implications on both superyachts and your own very 'normal' 40 footer. These firms do know that you normally have to get down and 'get your hands dirty' to solve a problem, just writing a memo will not do it. Anything else than that attitude will not satisfy their clients.

I think these firms are your best hope for a solution to this issue. It is actually not as complicated as some posters above tries to make it out to be.
 
Re: IEDMT

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The odd thing about the OP's story is that he says he's had his boat sealed with 'tape' and denied access,

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi lemain,

I don't think the OP said he was denied access.


Bob
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think the OP said he was denied access.


[/ QUOTE ]From the OP -----

"Those policemen put all over the boat a plastic band (like the one in the movies "Police Department - Do not trepass - Crime Sceene", only that it reads "GUARDIA CIVIL - NO PASAR")."

No Pasar means No Entry.
 
Yes I sent in that form when we became resident if France in July, 2006.

Unfortunately that was not enough and I had to follow the procedure here:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/form_france.htm

You can only do that after you have your first tax assessment in France which took me to September 2007. Although the UK inland revenue admitted receiving the form in October, they claimed overwork and said they would deal with it in May 2008. The refund for previous years finally arrived last August, however they neglected to notify a change of Code No to my private pension provider until, after much chasing by me, they finally stopped deducting tax from the pension 2 weeks ago and refunded tax deducted the current tax year.

You can probably tell that I am far from impressed with the efficiency of the Inland Revenue.
 
Re: IEDMT

____________________________________________________________________________________________

From the OP -----

"Those policemen put all over the boat a plastic band (like the one in the movies "Police Department - Do not trepass - Crime Sceene", only that it reads "GUARDIA CIVIL - NO PASAR")."

_____________________________________________________________________

Duhh..... I missed that despite a 'careful' re-read!

Thanks Lemain.

Cheers,

Bob
 
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