PLEASE HELP! Boat Seized in Spain by Pirates (Policemen)

Re: IEDMT

Jim I believe that everything you say is correct, but some official confirmation would help all of us.

There seem to be no recorded cases at all of anyone who is not tax resident in Spain (or who failed to declare themselves as such when they were liable to so so) being made to pay anything or re-register their boat.

Until that happens, I for one will not worry about it and my boat has now been in Spain since last May.
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]

There seem to be no recorded cases at all of anyone who is not tax resident in Spain (or who failed to declare themselves as such when they were liable to so so) being made to pay anything or re-register their boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. "No recorded cases" suggests that there were no cases. What percentage of yachties frequent yachting forums? Would we necessarily know?

2. If non-enforcement is going to be used as a test of the law, I could list dozens of foreign EU yachts that have been in Spain with liveaboard owners for years and have not been approached. All of these people are way outside the 183 day rule and are de-facto residents.

Surely the only question is:-

"What does the law actually say "? I have re-read the document and I don't think that Jim is correct but then I am not a lawyer nor is my Spanish good.
 
Re: IEDMT

Jim

That's really helpful and saved the rest of us the trouble of struggling to interpret Spanish law. I agree with others that some sort of confirmation would be helpful though I don't share Lemain's unreserved faith in the validity of paid-for legal advice. (I once had the experience of emerging from a conference with Leading Counsel and agreeing with the instructing solicitor that we wouldn't bother asking for a written note of the conference as the view expressed had been clearly bonkers.)
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
Jim, perhaps wishful thinking on my part, but that does make sense. Otherwise, for example, those taking a car to Spain for a holiday of more than 30 days would be liable, which would on the face of it be crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]Bulldozing someones home after they had built it -- with full planning permission from the local authority -- is also 'crazy' on the face of it. But it happened and the owners have still not been compensated.

Being 'crazy' is not necessarily a safe basis for assuming that a law doesn't apply to you. What matters is what the law actually says and then whether anyone bothers to apply it. Until you know what the law says you don't know whether you are exposed, or not.

It is unwise to take legal advice from those who are not qualified to give it. On your own head be it.
 
Hi
My neighbour and friend experienced exactly the same situation, but he was "informed upon" by the Marina staff!!

Having been in Spanish waters since 1999, I always recomend anyone to say they have only been in Spain a few weeks; you are allowed six months, but other people I know have sat on the same berth for 9 years and never moved and never been bothered.

We would sail out of our "home" marina for a few days/couple of weeks and then would be able to honestly state that we had only arrived at the marina on such and such a date, which is no lie and anything before that they cannot prove!

You need a solicitor who is "pro active" and also ask your insurers for help, as the Spanish processes are slow and expensive.

My neighbour eventually returned to UK leaving his boat in Almeria!
 
Without wishing to contradict someone's personal experience - (a) Marinas provide daily/weekly returns of boats berthed there to the Aduana/Guardia Civil so a boat's presence in a marina before it had left and then returned would be fairly straightforward to 'prove' and (b) it is not necessary for the authorities to 'prove' anything, the boot is on the other foot once the tax assessment/demand has been issued (just like the UK).
 
[ QUOTE ]
We would sail out of our "home" marina for a few days/couple of weeks and then would be able to honestly state that we had only arrived at the marina on such and such a date, which is no lie and anything before that they cannot prove!


[/ QUOTE ]You are sadly deluded about the not being able to prove where you have been as the Spanish Civil Guard have been installing highly sofisticated surveillance radar and IR equipment over the past 5 years to curtail the very large influx of illegal immigrants who cross the 16km of the Straits of Gibraltar every year.

They know every ship movement in and out of their ports and through the Straits, log every ship and yacht even though you think they are unaware of your movements, they know! The new equipment is know as IEVS [Integrated External Vigilance System]. Itlay will follow suit and install a similar sytem soon.

It is for this reason that the influx of illegals has switched from the coast of Spain to the west and entering via the Canaries where the monitoring equipment is not installed.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2...d5ffb2661245b32

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5030550

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2194043.stm

http://www.articlearchives.com/international-relations/national-security/856301-1.html

Now you know why they are getting tough! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
Desired reaction achieved (yet again) but fireworks have subsided and posts slowed down so more troll input to be expected .......... more than likely in a couple of weeks time in a different thread with another slant on the same subject.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a dedicated forum for this subject only accessible by people who have registered full details with tracability so if proof of genuine cases does arise we can at least be forewarned. Don't know if its possible but it is needed, some of us have a genuine concern.
 
Darn! I was about to create another post with a different slant but not intending to troll. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My problem is that I had intended to spend a year going down the French canals then into the Med to Spain. This is on a 90-100 year old wooden Pinnace with a BMC Commodore engine (80hp?). My novel twist is that I would wish to be tax-resident in each country as I don't earn a lot. Does any one know if this boat tax would be prohibitive for such an old boat with a comparitively small engine?
 
Concern

With respect, while there have been some overtly provocative, sarcastic even, posts on this subject, in this and the previous lengthy threads, and posts I personally would not have made, nor have much appreciated, I'm not sure we have seen trolling as such. There has been a lot of free debate and opinion, freely (perhaps too freely) given. Although suspicious, I am not even sure the OP was trolling and as others have said, we don't need to be that twitchy that every 'unusual' post is treated with derision, we can afford to be just a little open-minded and tolerant.
There has indeed been a lot of concern, possibly with good reason, possibly not. Not a lot of solid fact, but then solid fact (not opinion, not 'truth' based on just one person's experience) is thin on the ground. In amongst all the 130+ postings and 3,600 views (as I write) there are some real people (disagreeing with one another maybe) trying their best to find things out, here and in other ways, to help both themselves and other people. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Forbsie it is a long and complicated procedure becoming tax resident in other countries. In my experience it can take up to three years before the UK Inland Revenue stops tax from being deducted in Britain. Unless you are intending to stay, it is not worth the hassle and considerable correspondence necessary, as they do not let you go easily.
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
I think we need a Spanish lawyer or a British lawyer specialising in Spanish law for an opinion. I don't think that any of us could be happy about an opinion arrived at by tossing this around between non-legal, non-Spanish-speaking forumites. Too much is at stake for that.

[/ QUOTE ]Lemain, finally you have said something that I can agree with. You are very correct; this issue will not be solved by multiple speculations on this thread with little substance to back it up. That is a dead end.

There are experts in this field readily available and I am surprised that the RYA did not use them before publishing their 'fact letter', they do very well know of their existence. For the correct advice in this very narrow and specialised field you have to go to the 'international tax service' of one of the international accounting/law firms. The ones that have the best reputation are:

PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PWC)
KPMG
Baker&McKenzie

Any one of these will easily be able to explain the rules and issues involved here. You can find their contact details by google them; they will be represented in most countries and certainly in all of the western hemisphere.

However, you will not find their advice on any public domain webpage. The reason is twofold; firstly, this is their business so they only give away their intellectual property for a fee and secondly; they have to protect their liability and only give advice when they think it is correct and applicable.

What the RYA should do is use one of these experts and then re-issue a new Spanish guide that has some substance. The old one is nonsensical. That would add some substantial value to this issue.
 
Re: IEDMT

Sorry OliveOyl, yes minor league would be my description on this particular issue; but that is my very personal opinion. Others might disagree.......
 
Re: IEDMT

... we'll beg to differ on that...... I'd hardly describe Deloitte or E&Y as minor league on this subject!!!!

as for the matter in hand, having read the post carefully from end to end, the conclusions are really quite obvious.

No-one knows. Lots of people think they know. Lots of people think the other people are wrong. Lots of people are concerned about it. No one knows if the OP is genuine or not.

So proceed on that basis.

Sorry if that sounds sarcastic. It isn't meant to be.
 
Re: IEDMT

Morgana, I think the main issue here is (whatever the ranking) that any one of the five above mentioned firms could give a correct advice here. That is not the case with just any British or Spanish lawyer. In narrow law applications; it does matter whom you ask. Ask the wrong source and you get the wrong answer.

My preference for the first three is just based on personal experience of their quality of product (and I have been a partner in one of those three so I am clearly prejudiced.)
 
Re: IEDMT

Regarding IESDMT itself, it doesn't make any difference whether the OP is genuine or not. People are assessed for this tax and we need to get to the bottom of it. As you say, nobody really knows for sure what the law is.

The odd thing about the OP's story is that he says he's had his boat sealed with 'tape' and denied access, yet the usual marine 'sealing' is a simple sticker placed on the vessel, or on the wheel, and the owner is permitted completely free access but may not take the vessel out of the harbour.

The thing that 'matters' in the wider sense, about the OP's story is that the consequences of his alleged arrest are the same as anyone being locked out of their home....papers, cash, valuables, computers, clothes, phones, somewhere to live (many couldn't afford to stay in an hotel indefinitely and have no 'home' to go to). That makes it desirable to establish whether the OP is genuine or is a troll. If (and I doubt it) the story is entirely true, then liveaboard yachtsmen will have to consider avoiding Spain altogether since clearly the legal liability to any taxation had not been established yet the OP claims to have been locked out of his home with no right of entry. Presumably, then, this could happen to any yachtsman simply on the back of an allegation or, it seems in this case, simply an enquiry from the tax authorities who have collected information to enable them to assess any tax due.

I don't know the background of those reading this thread but true liveaboards are quite a small minority. Most yachtsmen only have their holiday things with them, but for a liveaboard with no other home (which the OP says is his case) it is a disaster, with all their papers and files on board...more or less everything they own.

We have never before heard of anything like it anywhere in Europe -- such behaviour would be entirely disproportionate. It is also highly unlikely, and I suggest that we discount it until we have satisfactory confirmation; I simply do not believe that the Spanish authorities would behave in the manner described in the OP. But, I am prepared to look at any evidence, if and when any should be given. I cannot see why the OP would not tell us which port he is in if his boat is covered in police crime scene tape!! It would be a very unusual (or even unique) sight and would attract the interest of the local papers, if nothing else, so the cat is well and truly out of the bag already.

If the story is confirmed then we will try to never again put into any Spanish port. Too dangerous and to be treated on a similar basis to certain African states with a poor reputation. But, as I say, I doubt it and we are continuing to plan to head from Italy to Spain leaving in a couple of weeks and will watch with interest.
 
Re: IEDMT

[ QUOTE ]
Or is it cock-up, not conspiracy, the effects of these measures not having been fully thought through?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would prefer to think your interpretation is correct, but somehow, I don't think that is the case. I think it has been carefully thought out as a way of keeping the 12% that was formerly a Registration Tax that was removed on EC insistence. A bit of "You force me, I'll have my own way anyway", but then again I may be wrong !!!
 
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