Planning ahead for the big retirement cruise

[efanton]

I'll leave others to discuss motor vs sail, engine size etc.
My random points:
While you may be able to "do" inland waterways without too much experience, sea crossings require the sort of knowledge you'd get from Day Skipper theory.
You don't state your citizenship.- unless it's an EU country, don't forget 90/180.
For Europe, you'd need ICC with Cevni endorsement.

I'm Irish, and have sailed before ( estuary/coastal short hops in good weather), but no certification but that is definitely on the to do list, along with all the other certs for the boat and red tape to use the European canals. Will be doing this solo, so it makes sense to get as much experience and knowledge beforre atemmpting it.

 

[Bouba]

Your budget is your sticking point....a boat that old is going to eat your contingency budget on day one and still be hungry.
Buying a boat for Ireland, selling it then moving on and rebuying on the continent might be better...a small underpowered, unreliable boat might be fine on the canals....although very scary on a river....and downright dangerous on the open sea.
Doing the French canals on an ex-hire boat with a forty horsepower engine that has passed through many hands, will give you a wonderful year off with memories to last a lifetime.

 

[efanton]

This Youtube channel has been the influence for my plans and he is using a yacht rather than a motor-cruiser as I am Sailing Options
He has a swing keel and demasted in Dunkirk, sending it down to meet him in the Med

Thanks for the link. Definitely going to watch all that. There are very few Irish YouTubers with boating channels and when you narrow that down to motorboaters who have actually taken their boat from Ireland to England and then across the channel to France I can only think of one and that is DRIFTWOOD.
Driftwood Boat Blog
Great channel BTW for anyone thinking of coming to Ireland

As said dismasted yacht was the original plan. Would save a fortune on fuel I would imagine, but the cost to get the mast dropped and lifted at each end would probably swallow a lot of the money saved in fuel. I haven't written this idea off completely yet.

I have some sailing experience and little experience on motorboats (couple of weekends on a river cruiser and a week with a friend on his narrow boat) so not too scared about the thought of taking a motor boat across the Irish sea solo. What does worry me is taking a boat out to sea and finding out that is totally under powered or uncontrollable in current or tides. This is where I have absolutely no experience and hoping others here can kindly share some of their experience and advice.

 

[efanton]

Your budget is your sticking point....a boat that old is going to eat your contingency budget on day one and still be hungry.
Buying a boat for Ireland, selling it then moving on and rebuying on the continent might be better...a small underpowered, unreliable boat might be fine on the canals....although very scary on a river....and downright dangerous on the open sea.
Doing the French canals on an ex-hire boat with a forty horsepower engine that has passed through many hands, will give you a wonderful year off with memories to last a lifetime.

But THAT is the question I am trying to get an answer for
What is UNDERPOWERED ? At what HP point would you feel safe and comfortable?

I have been viewing ads for Broom 35's, bayliner 33's, Princesses, Seamasters etc etc and the engines can range in power from anywhere between 40hp and 420hp.
I would imagine a 40hp boat would get knocked backwards by the first wave it encounters, but I do not know at which point a boat becomes feasible in term of power.

I know it has been done in 40 hp boats and although I have always been a bit adventurous, suicidal I have never been.

If you were taking a boat across the irish sea or the English channel how much power would you expect to have to feel safe?

 

[efanton]

Should have stated I am looking for a boat in the 30 to 35 foot range that might sound big for someone going solo but being that I will be living aboard for the journey I think that size would be appropriate, Turning tables into beds every night, or sleeping awkwardly in a cramped v-berth is something I would prefer to avoid.

 

[efanton]

There is a lot more to taking a boat to sea than just engine size.

It is a combination of engine size and hull type that determines speed but as a starter for ten it needs to at least be sufficient to punch a tide for sea passages. Crossing the Irish Sea you might want to make more than a six knot displacement speed so then it is looking at semi-displacement or planing hulls with suitably sized engines. As an illustration we had a Sealine S34, which has a planing hull, and that had twin 175hp engines and would cruise around 20 knots.

More importantly the boat should be designed and fitted out to go to sea and the EU Recreational Craft Directive categories are a helpful starting point in this regard.

Thanks for that. That helps narrow down the list of possible boats.
Problem is most adverts don't even mention which category they are in, and as you can have the same model boat but with varying engines fitted its not very helpful for someone in my situation. I suppose I could check the category to make sure it Cat. A or B before even organising a viewing, but I am not at that stage yet. No point buying a boat now and paying mooring fees and getting little use out of a boat until I am almost ready to set off.

Plan was to buy a boat, spend 6 months fixing and preparing the boat, with 2 or 3 months cruising the Shannon to get used to the boat and how it handles as well as identify thing I might have missed. I know for instance most boats that have VHF radios on the Shannon do not have AIS and that is a legal requirement for all boats on the French canals from what I have read. Many other rules and regs that might mean adding or replacing other equipment.

 

[dunedin]

But THAT is the question I am trying to get an answer for
What is UNDERPOWERED ? At what HP point would you feel safe and comfortable?

I have been viewing ads for Broom 35's, bayliner 33's, Princesses, Seamasters etc etc and the engines can range in power from anywhere between 40hp and 420hp.
I would imagine a 40hp boat would get knocked backwards by the first wave it encounters, but I do not know at which point a boat becomes feasible in term of power.

I know it has been done in 40 hp boats and although I have always been a bit adventurous, suicidal I have never been.

If you were taking a boat across the irish sea or the English channel how much power would you expect to have to feel safe?

But as people are trying to tell you, engine power should be WAY down on the list of priorities for a boat to cross the Irish Sea and Channel. Many boats have done with 10hp or less.
More important things are seaworthiness - and weather!
Hull type, stability, secure windows, freeboard at stern etc all perhaps more important. And if primarily doing canals, ability to do 20 knots for a few hours is hardly a priority. Masses cross safely at 5-6 knots. And in total this will save 6-8 hours on a multi-year cruise.

But also why it is worth considering buying a suitable canal boat already in continental Europe - and using a differnt or charter boat for Ireland / Shannon.

 

[Gustywinds]

Thanks for the link. Definitely going to watch all that. There are very few Irish YouTubers with boating channels and when you narrow that down to motorboaters who have actually taken their boat from Ireland to England and then across the channel to France I can only think of one and that is DRIFTWOOD.
Driftwood Boat Blog
Great channel BTW for anyone thinking of coming to Ireland

As said dismasted yacht was the original plan. Would save a fortune on fuel I would imagine, but the cost to get the mast dropped and lifted at each end would probably swallow a lot of the money saved in fuel. I haven't written this idea off completely yet.

I have some sailing experience and little experience on motorboats (couple of weekends on a river cruiser and a week with a friend on his narrow boat) so not too scared about the thought of taking a motor boat across the Irish sea solo. What does worry me is taking a boat out to sea and finding out that is totally under powered or uncontrollable in current or tides. This is where I have absolutely no experience and hoping others here can kindly share some of their experience and advice.

There's another YouTube blog by a Canadian couple who do France in a yacht and store their mast onboard. Distant Shores TV
Also a Norwegian who go through a lot of Europe Sailing Magic Carpet

When I was looking I asked on here and also asked a few brokers about power although I was more worried that some of the boats I was looking at were too powerful and would choke up at canal speeds (or be too fast at tickover). The conclusion I came to was the Nimbus 280 with a 150HP was about as low/small as I wanted to go for crossing the channel and on the Seine. Rhône and out into the Med. I was budgeting a fair bit higher than you though ( £75-100k). My other concern was handling locks solo (and just regular docking) so I wanted at least a bow thruster. As it turns out , the boat I bought has 350HP and a stern thruster and Ive just had the thrusters fitted with a wireless remote (trying it for the first time tomorrow!).

I'm from Northern Ireland originally and go my first boating experience was on Lough Erne before it was possible to get through to Shannon. Love to go back someday but I've got South Holland, Belgium, France and northeast Spain lined up for the next year or so!

 

[Alicatt]

But THAT is the question I am trying to get an answer for
What is UNDERPOWERED ? At what HP point would you feel safe and comfortable?

I have been viewing ads for Broom 35's, bayliner 33's, Princesses, Seamasters etc etc and the engines can range in power from anywhere between 40hp and 420hp.
I would imagine a 40hp boat would get knocked backwards by the first wave it encounters, but I do not know at which point a boat becomes feasible in term of power.

I know it has been done in 40 hp boats and although I have always been a bit adventurous, suicidal I have never been.

If you were taking a boat across the irish sea or the English channel how much power would you expect to have to feel safe?

This is what we bought for €6k, a 45year old river boat, took a few months of work to get her to a point that she was usable, with a spend of around €2k including servicing the engine by the local marine engineer, she is inland waterways only with a size of 7.5m x 2.5m and 0.8m draught, with a air draught of around 2m, 1.9m internal headroom and comes in at around 2000kg, powered by a 13hp VP MD7A, she is fine for the canals with a top speed of about 11km/h and cruises at 8km/h and sucks down diesel at about 0.5l/h @8km/h, tank is 120litres so you can go for days on a tank full. We had our first cruise on her last month 80km 2 day trip to Maasmechlen overnight there with the club and a 2 day trip back to our home haven.
Not powerful enough for the open seas and a bit on the flat bottom side. Shortly she will be getting lifted and a scrape and repaint with new anodes which will cost about €2k.

 

[Ferris]

But THAT is the question I am trying to get an answer for
What is UNDERPOWERED ? At what HP point would you feel safe and comfortable?

I have been viewing ads for Broom 35's, bayliner 33's, Princesses, Seamasters etc etc and the engines can range in power from anywhere between 40hp and 420hp.
I would imagine a 40hp boat would get knocked backwards by the first wave it encounters, but I do not know at which point a boat becomes feasible in term of power.

I know it has been done in 40 hp boats and although I have always been a bit adventurous, suicidal I have never been.

If you were taking a boat across the irish sea or the English channel how much power would you expect to have to feel safe?

Just looking on local ads there and saw this
Princess 30DS for sale in Co. Roscommon for €32,500 on DoneDeal
It’s an Irish build on a hull moulding from Marine Projects / princess. It’s a bit more modern than what you’re looking at and I think it’s great value. 40-80 up on any of these boats gets you to hull speed so unless you want to up the power exponentially for a few extra knots I’d stick to low power. Our boat is 37ft with 72hp and it’s fine on the Shannon navigation, most of the time I’m at half throttle.

 

[oldgit]

Just looking on local ads there and saw this
Princess 30DS for sale in Co. Roscommon for €32,500 on DoneDeal
It’s an Irish build on a hull moulding from Marine Projects / princess. It’s a bit more modern than what you’re looking at and I think it’s great value. 40-80 up on any of these boats gets you to hull speed so unless you want to up the power exponentially for a few extra knots I’d stick to low power. Our boat is 37ft with 72hp and it’s fine on the Shannon navigation, most of the time I’m at half throttle.

Ensure this boat has been in private ownership from new.
Every hire motor boat have seen has had all the life battered out of it before the remaining corpse is dumped on the market.

 

[Ferris]

Ensure this boat has been in private ownership from new.
Every hire motor boat have seen will have had all the life battered out of it before its dumped on the market.

Agreed, based on experience……

 

[efanton]

I appreciate that you

There's another YouTube blog by a Canadian couple who do France in a yacht and store their mast onboard. Distant Shores TV
Also a Norwegian who go through a lot of Europe Sailing Magic Carpet

When I was looking I asked on here and also asked a few brokers about power although I was more worried that some of the boats I was looking at were too powerful and would choke up at canal speeds (or be too fast at tickover). The conclusion I came to was the Nimbus 280 with a 150HP was about as low/small as I wanted to go for crossing the channel and on the Seine. Rhône and out into the Med. I was budgeting a fair bit higher than you though ( £75-100k). My other concern was handling locks solo (and just regular docking) so I wanted at least a bow thruster. As it turns out , the boat I bought has 350HP and a stern thruster and Ive just had the thrusters fitted with a wireless remote (trying it for the first time tomorrow!).

I'm from Northern Ireland originally and go my first boating experience was on Lough Erne before it was possible to get through to Shannon. Love to go back someday but I've got South Holland, Belgium, France and northeast Spain lined up for the next year or so!

Thank you so much. This is the exactly type of answer I was hoping for,

Looking at the ads and my budget is a bit low. There are a good few Nimbus 27's with 130hp engines slightly above my initial budget (approx 35k sterling), would you think one of them suitable or would that be under powered in your opinion?

I have some wiggle room, (save harder for the next few years) and should be able to stretch to 35k sterling, but I also want to make sure I have a budget put aside for 'fixes' I have a separate budget lined up for equipment such as radios, safety equipment, maps and chartplotter, internet etc, and another for actual living expenses while I travel (food, entertainment, tolls, fuel etc) and might be able redirect a little from that too.

But 50k+for your boat as that seems to be the starting price will probably be too much.

But thank you. exactly what I was looking for

 

[Bouba]

Ensure this boat has been in private ownership from new.
Every hire motor boat have seen has had all the life battered out of it before the remaining corpse is dumped on the market.

There is another way to look at it....hire boats from large fleets lack for nothing...they have mechanics and workshops as well as their own facilities for lifting the boats on a regular basis and a maintenance routine. It’s after they pass into private hands the neglect begins...perhaps not by the first private owner who may baby it, but by the time it’s changed hands a few times. Of course it could get lucky and be picked up by someone who will completely restore her...

 

[efanton]

Just looking on local ads there and saw this
Princess 30DS for sale in Co. Roscommon for €32,500 on DoneDeal
It’s an Irish build on a hull moulding from Marine Projects / princess. It’s a bit more modern than what you’re looking at and I think it’s great value. 40-80 up on any of these boats gets you to hull speed so unless you want to up the power exponentially for a few extra knots I’d stick to low power. Our boat is 37ft with 72hp and it’s fine on the Shannon navigation, most of the time I’m at half throttle.

Thank you so much.

Yes I saw that ad, but as I said in my initial post I wasnt sure if a 50hp engine on a boat of that type would be sufficient for the Irish Sea.
This is my big concern. There's lots of boat here in Ireland (mostly ex-hire)) but they are predominantly river boats and designed for that. When does a river boat become a sea capable boat? I have no idea, hence this thread.

I am aware that a large number of boats on the Irish market are ex rental, which are then abused for a few years by a new owner and then resold when the owner refuses to put significant money into bringing the boat back up to spec.

I'm pretty good at general boat maintenance, helped a friend do a complete refit on a Moody 31, so a bit of fibreglassing, basic electrical, or engine work on the right boat doesnt concern me. As long as its solid, not a 'project' and worth putting some work into it is ok by me, and possibly a way to get more for my money.

 

[Ferris]

Thank you so much.

Yes I saw that ad, but as I said in my initial post I wasnt sure if a 50hp engine on a boat of that type would be sufficient for the Irish Sea.
This is my big concern. There's lots of boat here in Ireland (mostly ex-hire)) but they are predominantly river boats and designed for that. When does a river boat become a sea capable boat? I have no idea, hence this thread.

I am aware that a large number of boats on the Irish market are ex rental, which are then abused for a few years by a new owner and then resold when the owner refuses to put significant money into bringing the boat back up to spec.

I'm pretty good at general boat maintenance, helped a friend do a complete refit on a Moody 31, so a bit of fibreglassing, basic electrical, or engine work on the right boat doesnt concern me. As long as it’s solid, not a 'project' and worth putting some work into it is ok by me, and possibly a way to get more for my money.

Having completed 2 ex-hire boat rebuilds I have come to the conclusion that buying the best condition boat that you can afford is probably the most cost effective route and it’s certainly a lot easier and you also get to spend your time boating. A bit of an annual refit / update - fine, but no more rebuilds.

The problem you have is that seagoing motorboats are expensive to buy and maintain. Seagoing yachts are not ideal for shallow inland waterways for a variety of reasons. Low powered inland boats are not suitable for serious sea crossing.

In saying that my dad knew a guy who bought an ex-hire seamaster 30 with a single engine and crossed Irish Sea to UK and sailed around the south coast and across to France, coming back to Ireland some years later. He then bought an ex-hire single engine broom continental and did it again. I saw the boat for sale in France many years later so he made it anyway. He did say that he had to wait for long periods for weather windows to do the sea crossings.

 

[Gustywinds]

I appreciate that you


Thank you so much. This is the exactly type of answer I was hoping for,

Looking at the ads and my budget is a bit low. There are a good few Nimbus 27's with 130hp engines slightly above my initial budget (approx 35k sterling), would you think one of them suitable or would that be under powered in your opinion?

I have some wiggle room, (save harder for the next few years) and should be able to stretch to 35k sterling, but I also want to make sure I have a budget put aside for 'fixes' I have a separate budget lined up for equipment such as radios, safety equipment, maps and chartplotter, internet etc, and another for actual living expenses while I travel (food, entertainment, tolls, fuel etc) and might be able redirect a little from that too.

But 50k+for your boat as that seems to be the starting price will probably be too much.

But thank you. exactly what I was looking for

I would emphasise I have no actual experience with any of these boats crossing the channel, I am going on what brokers and people on here told me . The boat I am on now I have only driven in the river estuaries here and round from where I bought her to Dordrecht where I am having some equipment installed and stocking up.
This Aquador and the Nimbus's I looked at are all class B offshore vessels so should have no problem with the channel/Irish Sea in reasonable weather. I didn't consider the 27 as I'd set myself a limit of nothing older than 2000 but I'd imagine it is class B as well. Should have a plate like the pic attached. The older Volvo TAMD engine is supposed to be very good and I've read on here that that are a lot more "user maintainable" than the later common rail electronically controlled ones. I found this review online which seems very positive https://www.iims.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Nimbus-27-Familia-Coupe.pdf
There was an Aquador 28 for sale in Dublin which I nearly went to look at but was put off by the fact it has a sterndrive

 

[Refueler]

There is another way to look at it....hire boats from large fleets lack for nothing...they have mechanics and workshops as well as their own facilities for lifting the boats on a regular basis and a maintenance routine. It’s after they pass into private hands the neglect begins...perhaps not by the first private owner who may baby it, but by the time it’s changed hands a few times. Of course it could get lucky and be picked up by someone who will completely restore her...

Its the sme old argument about buying an ex rental car. The fact is that any reasonable rental company maintains the car / boat to make money - which means not breaking down.
I would have no qualms about buying an ex rental.

 

[harvey38]

Having watched many You tube series on the subject, the most down to earth, logical and entertaining one I found was
https://www.youtube.com/@JaywalkingTheWorld

It goes from looking for a boat to purchase, buying a boat on the Thames then the adventures of moving it down to Ramsgate, across the Channel, through the French canals to the Med. and eventually meandered to Malta.

A no frills watch with many pitfalls, highs and lows including running aground.

Very watchable.

 

[dunedin]

Its the sme old argument about buying an ex rental car. The fact is that any reasonable rental company maintains the car / boat to make money - which means not breaking down.
I would have no qualms about buying an ex rental.

….. and as the OP has a minuscule budget, will need to compromise somewhere (in many areas) to find a suitable boat within budget. Hence ex rental fleet could be one way of getting an eminently suitable boat - if somewhat bumped around the edges - within budget.