PetersOpal

[Nautical]

Re: Hurrah for this idea

Thirded (is that a word) Jez for Chairman /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I want to see lots of new and exciting launches, and SIBS to become the first show of the season on a world stage, if they can do it in the freezing cold and snow in February in Dusseldorf miles from the sea why can't we do it here /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[jfm]

Ah, thanks. So, apart from initial deposit your clients are never on risk. That's fantastic - you and Jez seem to be the best boat dealers in UK (world?). Perhaps you could both stand for BMF president on a joint ticket?

A mate recently bought a new build £1m fairline from EBY and had to go through all this. Eventually a set up was worked out to avoid most of his credit risk but it was quite a mission to negotiate it. I'm weighing up a new boat (the Sq is 4 years this winter) and have to go through all this becuase it's too much £££ and too much % of my total £££ to risk being caught out as an unsec creditor

The thing about your set up Trevor is that you are prepared to do it and presumably have disaster plan if your client can't pay (you just sell the Abs to next person in the q I guess - easy peasy). But many dealers aren't, so I'd like to see Jez's system with a (paid-for) bank g'tee take off becuase it's such a simple and neat idea imho. Moreover if the bank refuses the guarantee it's a great alarm bell that the builder is financially unsound

 

[Nautical]

Praise indeed /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think maybe the difference is that Jez and I are boaty people, its not a means to an end although it has to pay its way. Dont think the powers that be would like me in their midst, tend to do things my own way and not particularly good at ruling by committee, I upset too many /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I think Jez's ideed is brill and if he doesn't mind I think we'll nick the idea /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif with the 64 and 70 coming on stream in the next 18 months even our man will baulk at squillions out for up to nine months.

Disaster plan is no more than we have a small production run per season so there is always a buyer somewhere even if we have to discount the lost booking deposit to get them into it, thankfully this hasn't happened yet. Don't forget though we also check you out to make sure you have the resources to pay for it whether personal or through your finance co.

 

[jfm]

Praise all deserved! Hope others have sense to copy you.

Yes, as your business gets bigger I think you have to change your plan. The credit cost of actually borrowing the stage payments will be higher than a g'tee becuase the bank (generally) has to burn up more of its capital adequacy and is also on more risk as it loses out if either you OR Absolute go bust.

With Jez's guarantee it is just a guarantee so less balance sheet capital adequacy burn up for the bank, and the bank is only on risk if builder goes bust. No need to be on risk if dealer goes bust. So, fundamentally it ought to be cheaper. Bank would have to monitor the builder's credit position, so need an internationally bank, but you will be doing this with a biggish bank anyway.

More power to your elbow. You ought to get (certainly deserve) incremental sales if you offer this to customers, especially the savvy ones who understnad the risks and have noticed the Peters story. this combined with your Zebrano veneer means you should have a top product here Trevor

 

[volvopaul]

Just spent the last half hour reading all these posts, agree with some and have mixed feelings bout others, general talk in the trade is I think is everyone is hoping for a good Southampton show, however everyone will be very cautious about where they spend there money, I also think the main lenders will now be a bit more cautious who they lend to after this probably the worst company finance failure in the marine sector for years.

The system needs new blood injecting into it, the old boys club needs to go and move into the modern world we now live in, people are spending much more money on boating than they ever have done and need more protection.

I wish the creditors, especially the private individuals like myself the best of luck with the administrators, it has now made me think twice who I work for as I too have done warranty work for BA Peters over the past 3 years.

 

[Pinnacle]

Sorry guys - I have missed out on the continuity of this thread. I had to do some work - in this market, it's interesting.....

To jfm, you are almost correct in your guess and I agree with your conclusions.

To Nautical and Jez, if I ever have the wherewithall, you guys will be first on the list! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[D3B]

Stewart

I believe MBY have a monthly (or so) article written by a certain Mr Fairbanks who i understand advised a certain forumite regarding a duff vessel. and gave me some phone help as well.

perhaps an article to cover these issues across the relevant IPC magazines???

my very old understanding of clients accounts (in legal profession) was they couldnt be touched other than for clients purpose. perhaps that should be the way for the boat industry to go. i "handed over" the last boat for sale when i ordered Still Dunno with no real guarantees over proceeds.....ooops!

Doug

 

[Pinnacle]

Doug

In the posts above the concept of client a/c's has been reviewed and rejected. An alternative has, however been proposed!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Frontier]

I know its money and not boats, but these people (Corporate FX) transfered some money for me once and they said the Bank holds the money and its identified to the owner of the money (us) so if theyr were to go under while they had your money the Bank knows who you are and it only only function is to give you your money back, after all it your money until the transaction completes.

Corporate FX

[ QUOTE ]
CorporateFX Ltd operates 'Client Transaction Accounts' for all traded currencies, held at Lloyds TSB, London . As such your funds will be held exclusively in these accounts and are identifiable at any given time. These accounts are totally separate to the 'Business Accounts' operated by CorporateFX.



[/ QUOTE ]

No connection to this lot, although they did do a good job for me. I have never needed to use them again.

 

[Coupe]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know who the current Chair of the BMF is?.................................................

[/ QUOTE ]


Was! He stepped down today /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Seven Spades]

I would offer the following possible solutions for any purchasers of new vessels, I am not a lawyer so the following might not be correct but I think they might be workable.

If you are buying a boat in stage payments ensure that the "Dealer" is acting as agent for the manufacturer and that your contract is with them and not the dealer, then you should be protected from the dealers failure but not the manufacturers.

If you have to make stage payments buy x/64ths at each payment, that way part title would transfer at the point of the funds movement if that is what it says in the contract. It should stop any part paid yacht being deemed a part paid asset of the dealer to be held/sold for the benefit of all creditors.

Are these realistic suggestions?

 

[mikefleetwood]

Forgive me for butting in, but wasn't the situation of the original complainant(?) somewhat different?

I understood that the "brokers" had sold their boat for a considerable sum and received full payment from the purchaser. Then, they went into "administration" before passing the proceeds on to the original owner/seller. Surely, in this situation the cash belongs to the seller, and should be 100% recoverable from the company? Afterall, it is not a "deposit", it is not required to finance manufacture, it is someone else's money. It is more like moneys held in a solicitor's or accountant's "client account", best described as "held in trust"?

 

[jfm]

Fine suggestions in principle but other side wouldn't play ball. Many manufacturers will not contract directly with customer, on principle. And any sensible manufacturer will not accept the x/64ths idea (I certainly wouldn't if I were them) because if the customer defaults the manufacturer can't sell 64/64 of the boat unencumbered to the next buyer on the waiting list.

So imho these ideas dont work. Jez's idea is still by far the best I have ever heard. And he is evidently able to make it work in practice

 

[gandacle]

Hello all - Jezbanks makes a very good suggestion but we (our business is insurance) have made some tentative enquiries about credit insurance and similar products but have found terms hard to come by due to the comparative weakness of many boat dealers balance sheets. As Jfm says the deposits are used as working cap...

I feel sure if we could organise such a product it would be lapped up as the dealer could use it as a sales / marketing tool and purchaser would be delighted to see his funds having some form of protection.

If any of you know where such a facility may be obtained I'd love to hear from you

 

[Whitelighter]

The guarentee we use is the Swedish bank that back the builder - N-Yachts. As we don't ask for the balance of payment until the boat is built and ready for dispatch, we are able to hand over the builders certificate and bill of sale at the point the monies are paid. To ensure that the boat is then delivered, the Swedish bank guarantee the monies against non delivery. Either the customer gets the boat or their money back.

 

[Gludy]

The very fact that many dealers have weak balance sheets is the very reason for not allowing them to use the deposits as working capital!

 

[rubberduck]

When I dealt with a certain dealer I checked their status which was glowing. Strangely they never asked for large upfront payments. If they had I would have been concerned. Bit like dealing with a builder, if they want lots of money upfront, get another builder. It is not your job to finance them, its is the banks. If they wont then there is no way you should.

 

[Coupe]

[ QUOTE ]
The very fact that many dealers have weak balance sheets is the very reason for not allowing them to use the deposits as working capital!

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly

 

[Gludy]

Well the assumption was right.
Peters Opal have only until this Friday to find a buyer.
Click here

 

[Whitelighter]

There is a difference between a deposit and an upfront payment though. It is not unreasonable to ask for 10% to start building a boat to YOUR spec.

Otherwise, you run the risk of people ordering weird and wonderful things, then cancelling as they have no committiment,