PetersOpal

[StewartC]

MBM reader Angela Wild is asking anyone facing financial loss after PetersOpal went into administration to get in touch with her.

Angela faces losing a large amount of money, and wants to hear from others to discuss the options open to them.

If you would like to make contact, email MBM at mbm@ipcmedia.com, and we will forward your details on to her.

 

[Whitelighter]

I take it this is the same Lady who had her story in the Chichester paper following the sale of a Sealine?

I wish everyone luck, but as the company was a PLC, you can't touch the directors and if there is nothing left then there is no-one to claim from

 

[StewartC]

The very same.

There might not be a lot left in the pot for unsecured creditors (if the business is broken up and sold), but collective action is still better than nothing.

In the meantime we'll do what we can, which, admittedly, might not be a lot.

 

[petem]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish everyone luck, but as the company was a PLC, you can't touch the directors and if there is nothing left then there is no-one to claim from

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't it possible to go after the directors if the company was insolvent and still trading?

Pete

 

[[2068]]

Maybe not this time around, but isn't it time to Lobby for monies in Dealer Client Accounts to be underwritten by some sort of insurance like Solicitors have (or something: I'm not an expert in this area, but this is the UK, not China: customers shouldn't expect to lose their life savings because they placed an order with a large dealer whose MD was president of the BMF).

dv.

 

[gjgm]

I assume that she has been in touch with the administrator,as requested on the Peters web page? I imagine that KPMG can give a reasonably clear assessment of the options?

 

[MedDreamer]

Not strictly true that you can't touch the Directors. There is a degree of personal liability if it can be shown that the the company was trading wrongfully or fraudulently, both have which have clear definitions in company law.

That said it is highly unlikely that the Directors will end up with any personal liability.

 

[Whitelighter]

DV, I totally agree with you. I tried find a bank who would allow me to set up a numbered (CIN) escrow account for purchasers from us. Guess what? No banks were interested. All I have managed to do is secure a bank guarentee from the builders bank in Sweden that should the boat not be delivered once payments have been made, the bank will refund the payments. This costs 1% of the transcation value but is worth it for piece of mind IMHO. Also, the initial deposit paid is allocated to the hull number so at least the customer ownes has genuinely paid a proportion of the boat cost if we go under. Though that assumes I pass the deposit onto the factory (which actually I must do to start the build process).

There just ins't any facility with UK banks for secure accounts. I can set up a client account, but as you are all aware, I would also have complete access to it so the funds are not safe if I was intent on using them to support the business.

It seems the banking industry in the UK does not have the facility to help, even if a broker/dealer wanted to do the right thing

 

[Pinnacle]

Don't understand what the problem is....

I have opened literally hundreds of client accounts with High Street banks - where my firm were the sole signatories - and in every case the bank confirmed that the contents of the account would not be released to the firm ( or administrators/receivers ) in the event of insolvency.

PM if you would like more info.

 

[moondancer]

I agree with Jezbanks. We, for example, have to provide funds to the manufacturer during the build process. Separate accounts would be very difficult to administer and nigh-on impossible when the funds move across countries.

No, like others here I think this is the time for the industry, possibly the BMF , to look at consumer protection in line with other industries. If you look at the number of high profile bankruptcies over the years it is difficult to conclude that something industry wide is not needed.

The cost of putting some sort of central protection in place maybe high but it could be that people see the alternative as something akin to playing Russian roulette with their savings.

 

[MedDreamer]

Do you know who the current Chair of the BMF is?.................................................

 

[Gludy]

I do not see how a bank can confirm that the client account contents cannot be released to the administrators or preferred creditors. All it would take is a court order and the contents would have to go to thjose that the law defines as the preferred creditors. The bank can only speak for itself - it cannot take the law into its owns hands ..... so I am confused.

 

[GandalfLoJ]

no-one knows at the moment...

http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20070720165400ymnews.html

 

[Whitelighter]

The problem is Peter, that if I were feeling unscrupulous, then there is nothing stopping me dipping into a client account if I wanted to. The issue is the are not bonded. Yes if the company goes bust the funds are safe, but what if the funds had gone BEFORE the company finally goes? There is nothing to stop that - unless you know differently.

 

[StewartC]

She has indeed, but they've not been very forthcoming with information. She has been promised further details over the coming week, however.

 

[jfm]

But it's not down to the banks Jez, it's down to the contract between you and your customer and you and the builder as to who owns the deposit/stage moneys and who owns the boat (even if part built) at various times in the process

In reality you will not win with client accounts etc on a new build boat. The builder needs the deposit money to finance the build and the wages and overheads of a boat factory. Deposits are part of builder's regualr cash flow and working cap. You can do it more easily with a broker boat becuase the broker only needs to sit on the money for a few days and doesn't (shouldn't) use it as working cap in his business.

But your bank guarantee idea for new builds looks excellent and you seem to be blazing a very clever trail there, so good on yer and I hope that wins you some sales, becuase it should. It would be great if it became the industry standard for new boats, and then the 1% price should fall

 

[jfm]

I would guess you are in finacial services? In those cases, I bet the underlying docs make 100% clear that the money in your client accounts doesn't BELONG to you. You hold it on trust I'd bet? You certianly don't need it to pay your wages bill or other working cap needs. That's the issue here: if you order a new Azimut say through PEters and pay stage payments, the money no longer BELONGS to you. It has become Peter/builders working capital and you are unsec creditor. It has to be that way, cos the builder needs the money as working cap so they cannot agree the money belongs to you and should sit in a client account gahtering dust. THAT's what needs fixing in the boat industry, and the only practical solution imho is a 3rd party guarantee either from industry body (a la Law Society) or a bank g'tee as per Jez's excellent post/idea on this.

 

[[2574]]

In this discussion of client accounts everyone fails to make the critical distinction between fraudulent acts and business failures. Yes in the event of fraud a client account offers little protection but in the event of honest trading a client account offers excellent protection. If a dishonest Company director removed funds from a client account this is fraud and therefore theft - quite different to legislation under the Insolvency Act - which presumably offers alternative methods of recourse to the criminal activity undertaken by the fraudster.

rob

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

[ QUOTE ]
DV, I totally agree with you. I tried find a bank who would allow me to set up a numbered (CIN) escrow account for purchasers from us. Guess what? No banks were interested. All I have managed to do is secure a bank guarentee from the builders bank in Sweden that should the boat not be delivered once payments have been made, the bank will refund the payments. This costs 1% of the transcation value but is worth it for piece of mind IMHO. Also, the initial deposit paid is allocated to the hull number so at least the customer ownes has genuinely paid a proportion of the boat cost if we go under. Though that assumes I pass the deposit onto the factory (which actually I must do to start the build process).

There just ins't any facility with UK banks for secure accounts. I can set up a client account, but as you are all aware, I would also have complete access to it so the funds are not safe if I was intent on using them to support the business.

It seems the banking industry in the UK does not have the facility to help, even if a broker/dealer wanted to do the right thing

[/ QUOTE ]

this system a few years back was offered to us by a few Italian boat builders in Genova free of charge and I think it really is good and should be as a standard procedure for a new boat....

 

[[2574]]

Yes that's a fair point - money is no longer clients money if it has to be handed over to the manufacturer. But then the manufactuer is not the agent so surely the funds should go directly from Client account (held on trust by the agent) to manufacturer - NOT via the agent. The manufactuer is likely to have more assets than the agent and therefore represents a lesser risk?

rob