Permanent Jackstays

[jonathanhsm]

Thinking of installing permanent jackstays along the centre line of the boat. "Permanent" because I'm too lazy/ forgetful to rig/unrig every time I go sailing. If I use webbing I know its not a good idea to leave them on permanently because of UV damage etc. But what if I put the line(s) inside a PVC cover such as a lay flat hose - currently retailing around 10 quid from Toolstation.
Thoughts?

 

[lustyd]

Webbing is fine for a few years on deck. Don't cover them, you need to be able to inspect them every time for damage or chafe. Replace after 3 years regardless of the condition you think they're in (they are very cheap, after all!).

Don't go for centre of boat, it usually causes dangerous compromises to be made around stays and mast. Put them on the side decks and walk on the windward side when going forwards.

 

[thinwater]

Thinking of installing permanent jackstays along the centre line of the boat. "Permanent" because I'm too lazy/ forgetful to rig/unrig every time I go sailing. If I use webbing I know its not a good idea to leave them on permanently because of UV damage etc. But what if I put the line(s) inside a PVC cover such as a lay flat hose - currently retailing around 10 quid from Toolstation.
Thoughts?

Dyneema inside tubular webbing is common. However, the ends will also need to be covered, which can be done with larger webbing.

I used rope, but my boat allows me to run them off the deck, along cabin sides. The webbing covers the splice, shackle, and lashing. The anchor is a 316 climbing bolt hanger.

If they are permanent you can't use deck cleats. This is good because they are in the wrong places anyway. They are better left ~ 4' short of the bow and transom. Clip to the pulpit with your second tether if you need local support.

 

[lustyd]

Also don't use round stuff like rope, may as well pour some bearings onto the deck!

 

[thinwater]

Also don't use round stuff like rope, may as well pour some bearings onto the deck!

[Note that the jackstay in the picture cannot be stepped on. No section can be.]

This is why you run the Dyneema inside webbing. I would do it a little differently, but the idea is here.

 

[lustyd]

Oh, and don't connect them to cleats!

So do you take them off and check for damage inside the tube before every trip?

 

[thinwater]

... So do you take them off and check for damage inside the tube before every trip?

Good question.

Do you take the cover off every double braid rope to inspect the core? Do climbers do this with kernmantle ropes? Obviously not.

a. You can feel down the outside for bumps. Climbers do this very frequently and certainly after every hard fall. Many times a season.
b. Without visible damamge on the outside or bumps you can feel, core damamge is quite unlikely.

A half century of experience shows this is not an issue. But a fair question. Funny how often people bring this up with covered ropes, as though it were different from double braid.

 

[Tiger Moth]

Webbing is fine for a few years on deck. Don't cover them, you need to be able to inspect them every time for damage or chafe. Replace after 3 years regardless of the condition you think they're in (they are very cheap, after all!).

Don't go for centre of boat, it usually causes dangerous compromises to be made around stays and mast. Put them on the side decks and walk on the windward side when going forwards.

I'm with lustyd. Webbing is cheap and massively strong, just make sure they are stitched with proper, UV resistant, covermakers' thread and overdone, as if your life depended on it.
One thing I'm not sure of is how far aft to go with an anchoring point. If you go overboard with an autopilot engaged and an anchoring point next to the transom you could find yourself a long way from a boarding ladder and doing four knots in a cloud of spray. I'm about to install jackstays and would be interested in people's views on this.

 

[lustyd]

Do you take the cover off every double braid rope to inspect the core? Do climbers do this with kernmantle ropes? Obviously not.

I do inspect my lifejacket cylinder and auto trigger on a regular basis. My halyards aren't there to save my life and if they snap I drop the sail and use a different one.

Totally different scenario.

 

[lustyd]

One thing I'm not sure of is how far aft to go with an anchoring point

Far enough to clip on before leaving the cockpit. Usually you'd clip on in the cockpit while in the cockpit so falling over the rails from there is unlikely. If you use the windward side of the boat and/or heave to then being in the water would be extremely unlikely. Always better to stay on board, even if you do break a rib when you fall onto the coachroof winches

 

[thinwater]

I do inspect my lifejacket cylinder and auto trigger on a regular basis. My halyards aren't there to save my life and if they snap I drop the sail and use a different one.

Totally different scenario.

Not different than rock climbers and mountaineers. And they take millions of life threatening falls every year. And firefighters and OSHA and ISO regulated climbing activities.

So not different. This is a topic I'm well versed, having many decades of experience. Not including work experience, I've probably benn on about 1000 climbing outings (45 years, 20 or more per year) and taken multiple falls on a rope most outings (that is the nature of high-end climbing), so probably 1500-2500 falls. We inspect the rope often, but they take many, many falls before retirement, the number depending on the severity and signs of damamge discovered during inspection (general wear, cuts to the cover, lumps in the core).

 

[lustyd]

Not different than rock climbers and mountaineers

It's entirely different. Climbers replace their ropes regularly regardless of condition, and if there's chafe they replace immediately. They also don't leave their ropes laying about in the weather for years on end, and they do (if they're sensible) inspect at every use.

I'm sure you've done a lot of activities, but what you're saying isn't sensible or true.

 

[thinwater]

It's entirely different. Climbers replace their ropes regularly regardless of condition, and if there's chafe they replace immediately. (This is not even close to true, both "regardless of condition" and "regularly" (weekly, annually, 10 years?), except for some very risk-adverse, relative novice climbers. And manufacturers that love to sell stuff. Chafe is a relative term--that starts day one. We're dragging them over rocks, under load, not gelcoat. Yes, they are inspected, but other than UV damamge, serious chafe due to poor handling, and hard falls, climbing ropes last rather long. Age alone has been proven to have no real relevance. They also don't leave their ropes laying about in the weather for years on end (That's what the webbing cover is for, and there would still be a practical limit of 3 years IMO ... which is what you recommended for naked webbing), and they do (if they're sensible) inspect at every use (Yes, but that is the same. You would also inspect webbing jacklines, which would be damaged much sooner, if only by UV).

Yes, UV damamge to climbing ropes is a relatively minor factor for most climbers, because other damage will happen first. Even heavy use would likely be no more than one summer season or maybe one year. But webbing slings left on anchors for multiple seasons are known to be seriously weakened. The are not trusted after one season and ONLY if the date is known.

I'm sure you've done a lot of activities, but what you're saying isn't sensible or true. That sentence doesn't provide any actual information.

See above. We're just going to disagree. This is firmly in my wheelhouse and I can see the conversation will just go in circles. The irony is that I am suggesting a safer alternative (Dyneema covered with webbing) than naked webbing. I didn't invent the idea, I am just relating it to the OP. There are many good answers and the World Sailing regs don't specify much. About the only things that are really bad is rope on deck and webbing in the sun for more than a year.

In fact, there is no such thing as permanent. An textile will have a lifespan, depending on over-strength. Stainless cable even has a lifespan, though other disadvantages have made it unpopular for jackstays (no stretch and too slippery).

Note that webbing has lost 35% of it's strength in 12 months, 45% in 24 months, and 55% after three years, assuming zero use. This is just hanging on a test rack. Assuming you step on them some and the wind moves them around, subtract another 10%. You are well into the danger zone at two years. Far worse than what I am suggesting.

 

[jonathanhsm]

So after all this helpful advice I will probably go for 5/6 mm Dyneema inside tubular sleeve ... i want to fit and forget .... but not sure how long for, as uv tests above seem to be for the webbing deteriorating .... but if it's got dyneema inside not such a problem?

BTW fitting along the centre line with lines criss crossing at the mast and a short tether seems to be best for me as with that on relatively small boat theres no way I'd go over the guard rail.

 

[Refueler]

Sorry - I do not support permanent jackstays ...

Rigging when going out - you know that if stored properly they have not sufffered from UV / Weather / Damage etc.

Being a Ships Officer also previously - I do not like 'covered' things - that cover can hide a multitude of sins ...

Sorry but that's my opinion.

They are YOUR LIFE.

 

[thinwater]

...

Being a Ships Officer also previously - I do not like 'covered' things - that cover can hide a multitude of sins ...

Sorry but that's my opinion.

They are YOUR LIFE.

Not trying to start an argument, just some discussion:

First. Permanent rigging. First, permanent does not mean rigged forever. Probably they need replaced every 2-4 years. That has been my practice. If there is ANY doubt (based on engineering principles) they get replaced. But it does mean permanent in the sense that the seatbelts in your car are permanent. The reason is because you never know when you might need them.

• Singlehanding. About a week ago I was out by myself and something needed tending on the rail while going lickity split in waves and using a reacher. The options were hope it lasts until I get in, heave to (not at all easy, because the snag would inhibit rolling up the reacher, which would have to be done before tacking), or use a tether. I used a tether, which was easy because the jacklines were rigged.
• Thunderstorms. Not so much a UK thing, but they can pop up many or most days in the summer here. Nice day, light winds ... and then 40-60 knots.
• Night.

I just can't think of a reason not to have permanently rigged jacklines as a basic safety feature, like seatbelts. I can't think of an argument you could support, in court, with a straight face. Why not just look at them like lifelines, nav lights, a jim buoy on the stern rail, or many other feature you take for granted. Like seatbelts on a car. Again, they will need to be replaced as needed. The scheduled would be based on the material, but for example two years for webbing, three to four years for Amsteel, and four to five hears for heavier rope might be smart. That is what I have done. I replaced they 12 mm polyester jacklines on my PDQ at 5 years (rope was OK because they did not run on the deck--nice hand hold too) and I replaced the 9 mm polyester jacklines on my F-24 at 4 years (they too are not on the deck--they run on the tramp lacing, where you would never step).

Second. Most ropes are double braid. Many yacht ropes are Dyneema ropes are double braid with a polyester cover. Most of the strength comes from the core. Modern kernmantle climbing ropes where considered a major breakthrough, greatly increasing safety. Obviously, we do not believe climbing ropes would be safer without the cover. Obviously. Research the history of climbing ropes. And I don't think we believe that naked Amsteel is safer than a quaility double braid that provides protection for the core. So I thin the "covered" thing logic deserves examination. And I do NOT altogether disagre with it. I spent a good portion of my engineering carreer as an inspetor, and hidden stuff is sometimes creepy.

---

So when is hidden stuff bad?

• Corrosion. Many standards address this. For example, one of the big problems with welded lap patches on steel is that there is now a pocket that you can't inspect where corrosion continues.
• Rot. Same thing.
• Electrical stuff. And yet we accept wiring inside an outer jacket and inside conduit as better than exposed wires. The conduit must be installed without burrs, the wire must have a pulling jacket, and jacketed wire must be protected from chafe. In other words, the covering must not cause or allow hidden damamge. Webbing and doublebraid are mostly like that. Very smooth. Unlike conduit, you can feel through the coverings.

One of the ways inspection standards address this is looking at failure history. Kernmantle climbing ropes, for example, are well understood. You examine the jacket and feel for lumps with your fingers with coiling. Jackline failures are intersting. I'm pretty sure I have not read of a failure. I've read of tethers failing, but not jacklines. If you know of a failure, please post a link. Standards grow from failure history. The only things I think we know are:

• Webbing weakens with age and UV. There have been climbing fatalities when people clipped old webbing. I've pulled old slings off hangers with my bare hands. They may have been a decade old or more.
• Stainless standing rigging can fail. If you see a broken wire it is done.
• Covered ropes are safer than laid or braided ropes. Well proven in climbing.

But I don't know of any jackline failures. We all know of people that fell overboard and died and people that fell overboard on a jackline and died.

 

[lustyd]

5/6 mm Dyneema inside tubular sleeve

The reason polyester webbing is used is that it has some stretch. Dyneema is designed to have effectively no stretch at all. This will have several effects - firstly the snatch loads of a couple of tons will potentially break the system. It's not just your weight, but your speed and also the fact that the pull is sideways, making the physics similar to a tightrope. Secondly, the snatch load on a human where there's no stretch could cause an injury when in a situation bad enough to make you need a lifeline, worsening the situation.

Jackstays are what they are for very good reason, and while people might say things that sound clever, the standard is almost always best. Don't use dyneema for jackstays, it's fine for guardrails but not for jackstays.

BTW fitting along the centre line with lines criss crossing at the mast and a short tether seems to be best for me as with that on relatively small boat theres no way I'd go over the guard rail.

No, this is dangerous. You'd need to unclip at the mast and lose protection. Put them on the side decks and use the windward side of the boat to go forwards. You won't go over the side because you'll fall onto the boat.

 

[lustyd]

This is firmly in my wheelhouse and I can see the conversation will just go in circles

This is very clearly not your wheelhouse.
The anchor you used is a climbing anchor with sharp edges designed for metal fastenings/quickdraws to connect to. It'll shred that rope, and any real climber would understand that that's the wrong setup immediately. They often chew through steel when used for climbing and both the anchor and the carabiner need replacing regularly.
You're advocating centre lines, which almost always cause dangerous situations by requiring re-clipping when an obstruction is met such as stays, mast, other lines, self tacking tracks etc. One of the core requirements of jackstays is a single unobstructed run from cockpit to bow on both sides of the boat. Placing them in the centre also encourages use of the leeward side of the boat which should never be done - always heave to if necessary. The centre line also puts the line closer to the edge, making the casualty more likely to be overboard. When on the windward side there's very little chance the tether is long enough.
You're advocating round lines, which roll under foot. You claim you can't stand on them but I'd counter that I've put a foot on almost every surface of my boat while at sea, far better to be safe and use something that just doesn't roll.
You're advocating covering essential safety gear and making it impossible to inspect. This is flat out dangerous. On your list of when hidden stuff is bad you missed chafe, like the kind that's certainly beneath your covering over that sharp anchor!

Also, even if your advice were good for climbing (it isn't!) jackstays are not climbing and have very little in common with climbing systems.

 

[Roberto]

One thing I'm not sure of is how far aft to go with an anchoring point. If you go overboard with an autopilot engaged and an anchoring point next to the transom you could find yourself a long way from a boarding ladder and doing four knots in a cloud of spray. I'm about to install jackstays and would be interested in people's views on this.

If you go over the side basically anywhere around the boat, your weight will pull the tether firmly down and it will be blocked against the first obstacle it meets: it might bend downwards the lifeline and lock against the first stanchion head, lock against a pulpit/pushpit structure, against fishing rod holders, lifebuoy holders or whatever other fitting you have around the boat. You will be hanging in the water very near to the position you fell in, except odd cases if for some reason you decide to clip to the backstay and step into the aft swim platform

 

[lustyd]

You will be hanging in the water very near to the position you fell in

Unless you used the windward side of the yacht. Then you'll be sitting on the deck lamenting your bruises but able to get up and deal with the situation. There's no reason at all to be over the side or in the water unless you completely misunderstood how jackstays are to be used.