zoidberg
Well-known member
Have you considered Barton Winchers for your non-ST winches? They do make an appreciable difference.
Optimum boat size
- Thread starter Chae_73
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Chae_73
Active member
Thanks; just googled them - will add to the shopping list!
zoidberg
Well-known member
Be aware they can be quite a struggle to fit. There's a reason for that.
I have 2 sets, and am pleased with them. They're not quite an exact substitute for full-on ST winches.... but then, they're hundreds of pounds cheaper.
Supertramp
Well-known member
There are endless posts about best boat for singlehanders on the forum and I agree with lots of the boat design comments like steady platform, manageable sails etc. How you will use the boat is a big factor, and where you are sailing (tides, waves, wind).
Really the best thing is to go out and do it, take note of what is hard and then make it easier with simple mods or avoid it altogether. An example is anchoring where I have a day anchor at the bow with some chain and a warp which is manageable by hand and avoids using the winch and 10mm chain for short stops. Watch some Patrick Laine YouTubes or similar.
Like another forumite I changed from a small to a larger boat and have found some things harder and heavier but also some things easier, such as navigating and heaving to (to sort anchors, fenders, sails etc).
So I don't think it's size but getting to know yourself, your sailing area and your boat through practice and experiment.
After a bit I think you'll find the optimum size is either what you've got or something you can define for yourself.
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
In my experience, once the headsail is on a furler, the size of said sail for handling purposes becomes somewhat irrelevant with the possible exception that smaller sails, and especially on boats with an inner forestay, may more easily clear the deck on tacking.
On my previous boat, a cutter, the 150% genny was 1000sqft the jib was 460 sqft and we did not have a furling system (hank on) on that boat, I regularly sailed her single handed. All line were lead aft to the centre cockpit.
The new edition, at 31', had a 250sqft genny on a furler when we bought her. I changer her rig and we now have 360sqft (130%). Quite frankly, I do not find it significantly different. We do have a nice set of selftailers for the jib sheets though. I must also confess that I've never found going up to the mast particularly bothersome or dangerous, but then my last two boats had high solid rails, the current one has deep bulwarks as well and both were of a more generous displacement. Having a boat with a distinct deck to deckhouse transition and height also helps to make the windward passage forward safer, IMHO.
If I were the OP, I would definitely give his current boat a chance and make small and relatively inexpensive changes only (such as the winchers suggested by Zoidberg) until it became clear that the marriage is going to last. As the OP has said, he hasn't had much of an opportunity to get to know her and any "new" boat is a learning experience. Besides, it is all too easy to obsess about things while dry-sailing in one's mind.
dom
Well-known member
My 65 sqm furling genny is fine in the open sea but in the Solent or similar I hate it , not only because of the complexity and faff tacking, but also the lack of visibility. Which is why we normally set a highish cut No. 3/4 staysail on an inner stay in such situations, which is much easier to tack, has much better vis, and one can always add more main if desired.
My point i guess is that bigger boats can have options.
Tranona
Well-known member
Indeed. It is all a question of scale and the kit you have to deal with it. The old IOR inspired rigs such as the Storm has were based on the premise that there was dedicated crew to look after jib sheets - indeed the cockpit is laid out for the crew to keep well clear of the helm with space to give some grunt to the non self tailing winches 1987 Westerly Storm 33 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
Rather different from my layout. The pile is put there so you can't see the helm! - but he can reach the winches easily which enables close tacking up and down the main channel in Poole all on my own. Downside of course is the small jib is poor off the wind. Hopefully will get another chance to try the new chute with those nice northerlies promised for later in the week. Newtown Creek here we come (first time this year).
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westernman
Well-known member
My reaching genoa is 1184 sq ft. ?
dom
Well-known member
Agreed. While my background is racing, I do often think that sailors underestimate the sharpness, speed, and sweetness of a dedicated foresail in moderate winds upwards.
Sure these sails don't really cut it offwind, although everybody is aware of that.
By comparison, the corollary while perfectly logical and plain to see is less well accepted. Namely the sublime inefficiency of those big, billowy Dacron gennys, furled into gruesome shapes; adept at tossing a vessel onto her ear and then pushing her sideways as the stouthearted helmsman hangs on for dear life!
ashtead
Well-known member
The answer to the headsail conundrum might be to have 2 - we have a nice little self tacker like others above advocate which we tend to use in the Solent but for long trips we have a larger headsail . Ideally we would have a third large chute for crushing on a Karver and a short prodder pole but generally when wind is that light and in correct direction the opportunities are rare. Clearly dual headsails might mean greater length but it does give options . I have always wanted a lifting keel which might be another option to consider.
Moodysailor
Well-known member
Letting my mind wander and taking into all the good comments, I'm starting to think about what my "ideal" rig/boat would be for our type of cruising.
For me, a solent rig (would also be happy with a second inner forestay on barber-hauler), in mast furling with vertical battens, bang on 12mtr with two heads, a retractable keel, bow thruster, and rotating or stowing davits (so we don't get beaten up by the marina measuring tape ). Oh, and a raised deck saloon.
I think such a boat would need to be custom made and that's not going to happen in my lifetime, but it's nice to dream
For me, a solent rig (would also be happy with a second inner forestay on barber-hauler), in mast furling with vertical battens, bang on 12mtr with two heads, a retractable keel, bow thruster, and rotating or stowing davits (so we don't get beaten up by the marina measuring tape
). Oh, and a raised deck saloon.I think such a boat would need to be custom made and that's not going to happen in my lifetime, but it's nice to dream
Tranona
Well-known member
Well it has a lot of weight to shift compared with our toy boats.
Apart from 2 heads, A Southerly 38 gets close - although I hear that the latest Discovery version requires you to sell both your kidneys to afford to buy it. Used ones if you can find one are in the almost affordable price bracket.Letting my mind wander and taking into all the good comments, I'm starting to think about what my "ideal" rig/boat would be for our type of cruising.
For me, a solent rig (would also be happy with a second inner forestay on barber-hauler), in mast furling with vertical battens, bang on 12mtr with two heads, a retractable keel, bow thruster, and rotating or stowing davits (so we don't get beaten up by the marina measuring tape
I think such a boat would need to be custom made and that's not going to happen in my lifetime, but it's nice to dream
LONG_KEELER
Well-known member
It's interesting when you sail on a much larger boat . Some things become immediately noticeable . Standing headroom down below (less tiring ), freeboard (jump to the pontoon),
wheel steering (different feed back) . Most noticeable, depending on conditions, is the lack of 'aliveness' of the boat compared to smaller boats. You are probably also in furling main country which I like , apart from easier handing ,you will probably sail more than motor.
It's great that me can move the variables as we age in sailing, unlike sports such as tennis where you just have to pack it in when the knees say 'no more please'.
wheel steering (different feed back) . Most noticeable, depending on conditions, is the lack of 'aliveness' of the boat compared to smaller boats. You are probably also in furling main country which I like , apart from easier handing ,you will probably sail more than motor.
It's great that me can move the variables as we age in sailing, unlike sports such as tennis where you just have to pack it in when the knees say 'no more please'.
johnalison
Well-known member
It ought to be possible to modify tennis for the infirm, just as they have walking football. A lighter and softer ball and a smaller court should do it. BTW, don’t jump to the pontoon - there lies possible misery.It's interesting when you sail on a much larger boat . Some things become immediately noticeable . Standing headroom down below (less tiring ), freeboard (jump to the pontoon),
wheel steering (different feed back) . Most noticeable, depending on conditions, is the lack of 'aliveness' of the boat compared to smaller boats. You are probably also in furling main country which I like , apart from easier handing ,you will probably sail more than motor.
It's great that me can move the variables as we age in sailing, unlike sports such as tennis where you just have to pack it in when the knees say 'no more please'.
dom
Well-known member
Moodysailor
Well-known member
I do like a Southerly (must admit I haven't looked at the Discovery due to the price). I also like the Ovni 370 (still one head)
Malo37
Well-known member
After many decades of sailing I think 36 - 38 feet is the optimum size.
Big enough to be comfortable for extended cruises and if necessary, make open water passages, but still small enough to sail single handed.
Big enough to be comfortable for extended cruises and if necessary, make open water passages, but still small enough to sail single handed.
LONG_KEELER
Well-known member
Apologies. Did not mean in a derogatory way but just less movement than smaller boats. Not to suggest that you couldn't have a satisfying sail on a larger boat.
dom
Well-known member
Apologies. Did not mean in a derogatory way but just less movement than smaller boats. Not to suggest that you couldn't have a satisfying sail on a larger boat.
To be fair I'd say that you're right in that most big boats have less feel.
Notwithstanding the bigger race orientated ones which sail surprisingly like big ultra-powerful dinghies. ?
Then again, these are probably of little relevance to this thread as they are a real handful to sail!
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
Just a few notes:
The real measure of size is not length, but displacement and as Tranona quite rightly put it: you add all those desirable amenities and it means weight.
You definitely can have headroom on a smaller (shorter) boat; ours has with 6'4"-6'5" in all areas at 31'. It requires a more generous displacement and freeboard.
The comfort on a boat is directly related to waterplane loading. The higher the loading, the more comfortable the boat, albeit at the expense of being able to plane or reach short bursts over what is considered hull speed. Comfort is generally thought to begin around 64lbs/sqrft. (Gerr)
What Dom said: Big sails on furlers make for lousy sail shape when reefed. This is the main reason why general headsails have been getting smaller. 130% is about the max size for furler reefing, smaller is better, no matter the cut or the padded luff. The difference in performance between a dedicated size sail and a furler is very noticeable.
A Dutch friend of ours had a Southerly 10.50(90?). I quite liked her and the quality of her finish seemed good. He did note that the hull was so flexible that in high winds and storm conditions the headstay would sag off so dramatically that he could no longer furl the sail. He tried to have a prof. rigger correct that, but to no avail, except to the effect that the chart table could no longer be opened. It was thought that to fix the problem the hull would require additional stiffening.
The real measure of size is not length, but displacement and as Tranona quite rightly put it: you add all those desirable amenities and it means weight.
You definitely can have headroom on a smaller (shorter) boat; ours has with 6'4"-6'5" in all areas at 31'. It requires a more generous displacement and freeboard.
The comfort on a boat is directly related to waterplane loading. The higher the loading, the more comfortable the boat, albeit at the expense of being able to plane or reach short bursts over what is considered hull speed. Comfort is generally thought to begin around 64lbs/sqrft. (Gerr)
What Dom said: Big sails on furlers make for lousy sail shape when reefed. This is the main reason why general headsails have been getting smaller. 130% is about the max size for furler reefing, smaller is better, no matter the cut or the padded luff. The difference in performance between a dedicated size sail and a furler is very noticeable.
A Dutch friend of ours had a Southerly 10.50(90?). I quite liked her and the quality of her finish seemed good. He did note that the hull was so flexible that in high winds and storm conditions the headstay would sag off so dramatically that he could no longer furl the sail. He tried to have a prof. rigger correct that, but to no avail, except to the effect that the chart table could no longer be opened. It was thought that to fix the problem the hull would require additional stiffening.