Old boat dumping problems

[Capt Popeye]

As above, many manufacturers no longer exist. However it would be reasonable for Harbour Authorities to add a small amount to their charges to build a 'sinking' fund for disposal of unclaimed derelicts. Ahem,,,,

Why Harbour Authorities , whats it gota do with them ?

One can envisiage boats being moved to other Harbours where the end of life scrapage is cheaper .

 

[Capt Popeye]

As somebody in the building industry and well aware of the landfill problems, I completely agree that producer should pay. But being as most have gone to the wall, if everyone paid an extra £50 a year in their mooring fees is could be sorted

Yea thanks a lot Buster , guess that you are quite new to boating or are not versed in our traditional Boating Ways

 

[Blueboatman]

Yea thanks a lot Buster , guess that you are quite new to boating or are not versed in our traditional Boating Ways

Throwing money into a pot oh oh
Government schemes haven’t the greatest record when it comes to chucking money at things and letting ‘ someone’ then administer it away, sadly

 

[oldharry]

Why Harbour Authorities , whats it gota do with them ?

One can envisiage boats being moved to other Harbours where the end of life scrapage is cheaper .

Because they are at the sharp end of dealing with abandoned boats in their Territory. Chi Harbour monitors closely for unpaid harbour dues and remove anything that hasn't been paid for each year. They then hold an auction. What happens to unsaleable derelicts I don't know, but if your boat gets towed, it's a significant cost to get it back!

 

[Blueboatman]

Told this story before but hey it’s Sunday morning ….
The vigilance of the Chichester Harbour Authority is second only to the Canadian Mounted police .
“The Mounty always gets his man”
So there I wus one morning sojourning in the Turks n Caicos on my old corribee and up swims this pleasant chap . Ah, boat chat thinks I. Nope.
Opening greeting :“ Your sticker’s 2 years out of date, chum!”
Edit: tongue in cheek, not a serious greeting.
ex Chi assistant HM turned diving instructor working out in the islands . It’s a small world.
?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Because they are at the sharp end of dealing with abandoned boats in their Territory. Chi Harbour monitors closely for unpaid harbour dues and remove anything that hasn't been paid for each year. They then hold an auction. What happens to unsaleable derelicts I don't know, but if your boat gets towed, it's a significant cost to get it back!

Yep our Harbour Charges are certainly high enough already , I say ; why should good n legal persons /yachtsman pay for the rouges who might abandon the boats , just seems very unjust to me ; Surely a National system where Harbour Authorities can claim from , maybe held /administered by the Boat Builders Association (certainly not Govt) ; That organisation certainly has the added income stream from the New Boat Builders on the Block each year

I understan that the Royal own most of the Forshore and river beds in Uk so maybe they could administer any Holding Funds ; as just maybe any derilict and abandonded Boat will eventually end up on their 'patch', either floating or sunk ?

 

[Poignard]

Yep our Harbour Charges are certainly high enough already , I say ; why should good n legal persons /yachtsman pay for the rouges who might abandon the boats , just seems very unjust to me ; Surely a National system where Harbour Authorities can claim from , maybe held /administered by the Boat Builders Association (certainly not Govt) ; That organisation certainly has the added income stream from the New Boat Builders on the Block each year

I understan that the Royal own most of the Forshore and river beds in Uk so maybe they could administer any Holding Funds ; as just maybe any derilict and abandonded Boat will eventually end up on their 'patch', either floating or sunk ?

Why should today's boatbuilders have to pay for the ecologically acceptable disposal of thousands of old boats that they have had nothing to do with?

 

[jac]

Why should today's boatbuilders have to pay for the ecologically acceptable disposal of thousands of old boats that they have had nothing to do with?

Also - Good luck with getting a boatbuilder abroad to pay if someone imports a boat into the UK privately.

Needs to be a small amount from lots of boats, not a large charge from a small number of boats.

 

[R.Ems]

Needs to be a small amount from lots of boats, not a large charge from a small number of boats.

Why should anyone associated with boats be penalised, who has no connection to the hulks in question?
Sounds like ignorant, inverted snobs targeting modern boaters, a bit like the Eelgrass agitators of Studland.
(There are ethical parallels with certain Caribbean nations claiming 'reparations' but we can't go there.)

I didn't know about the glass fibres getting into shellfish so readily; so the solution must be land based. What about filling up old mine shafts? Obviously not sustainable, as the shafts will be full in a few months.
But imagine a scrap crusher and a grain elevator at the top of every mine, and a convoy of trucks delivering dead GRP yachts for a few weeks.
If the maths added up, then why not? The money wouldn't be wasted and it would be cheaper than a lot of things.

Next problem, 'that was my grandad's yacht, happy memories, you can't just seize her to protect the whelks from getting a cough!'

 

[PhillM]

Why should anyone associated with boats be penalised, who has no connection to the hulks in question?
Sounds like ignorant, inverted snobs targeting modern boaters, a bit like the Eelgrass agitators of Studland.
(There are ethical parallels with certain Caribbean nations claiming 'reparations' but we can't go there.)

I didn't know about the glass fibres getting into shellfish so readily; so the solution must be land based. What about filling up old mine shafts? Obviously not sustainable, as the shafts will be full in a few months.
But imagine a scrap crusher and a grain elevator at the top of every mine, and a convoy of trucks delivering dead GRP yachts for a few weeks.
If the maths added up, then why not? The money wouldn't be wasted and it would be cheaper than a lot of things.

Next problem, 'that was my grandad's yacht, happy memories, you can't just seize her to protect the whelks from getting a cough!'

You have to start somewhere. Let’s not forget that the general overall cost when divided between all current boat owners is likely to be peanuts. Perhaps a small charge on the SSR certificate would suffice?

 

[R.Ems]

You have to start somewhere. Let’s not forget that the general overall cost when divided between all current boat owners is likely to be peanuts. Perhaps a small charge on the SSR certificate would suffice?

I'm fine with a modest one-off charge I suppose, proven to be spent only only burying grp landfill.

If it is actually a one-off!
Taxes are never 'temporary', nor are laws which 'temporarily ' restrict our liberties ever struck off the books...

 

[jac]

Why should anyone associated with boats be penalised, who has no connection to the hulks in question?
Sounds like ignorant, inverted snobs targeting modern boaters, a bit like the Eelgrass agitators of Studland.
(There are ethical parallels with certain Caribbean nations claiming 'reparations' but we can't go there.)

I didn't know about the glass fibres getting into shellfish so readily; so the solution must be land based. What about filling up old mine shafts? Obviously not sustainable, as the shafts will be full in a few months.
But imagine a scrap crusher and a grain elevator at the top of every mine, and a convoy of trucks delivering dead GRP yachts for a few weeks.
If the maths added up, then why not? The money wouldn't be wasted and it would be cheaper than a lot of things.

Next problem, 'that was my grandad's yacht, happy memories, you can't just seize her to protect the whelks from getting a cough!'

Well it’s a bigger question of why should all boat owners pay. It’s really who should pay. And whilst your suggestion above may be feasible it will still cost thousands per yacht.

Doing nothing is not an option, no-one wants creeks and rivers full of abandoned wrecks. So they must go
There is no cost free option as there is no market for old GRP boats (certainly once they pass a certain point) so someone must pay.
it’s unrealistic and unreasonable to expect all taxpayers to pay. Most of the country haven’t caused the problem.
Those who own boats are contributing to the problem. They are using up the lifespan of equipment and boats and bringing them closer to the point they will need scrapping.
It also seems perverse to make the buyers or builders of brand new boats solely pay. Those boats won’t be entering landfill for decades.
older boats though by definition are closer to being at the point of abandonment so realistically those are the people who should be paying.
in the absence of a mandated register then the only real option is a levy on harbour dues or mooring fees. It could then go into a central fund maybe run by a trade body (anyone but the government) with harbour authorities bidding for money to clean up abandoned hulks.

the central fund also perhaps aboids the problem where places like the river Hamble may collect tens of thousands but have minimal disposals whereas a rundown dock & canal up north may collect a minimal amount and have to dispose of shed loads

 

[Keith 66]

This isnt a new problem, Back in 2016 Eric Spongberg wrote an excellent article on the subject link here,Recycling Dead Boats - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine,
It isnt just harbour authorities having to deal with it its every local council with a waterfront, every yacht club & boatyard too.
Our club is no exception, we have unrivalled storage facilities & the number of dead or dying boats gets bigger every year.
One aspect is many older members still cling onto the dream that they one day might use the boat again. Also many refuse to accept that total depreciation of "their asset" has well & truly arrived. Even 15 years ago older boats were still fetching good money, many are now worthless or even a big liability.
Some say "Just pop it on ebay", Great idea until some chancer just buys it on a whim, strips it of anything saleable & then evaporates into thin air never to be seen again. Quite a common scenario these days!
Ultimately the problem can only be addressed by a multi pronged approach, A levy on new boats to pay for future disposal, Levy's on harbour dues. One thing that has been mentioned is a disposal charge levied on a boat when it enters the site, refundable to the owner if it leaves the site in one piece or disposed of properly by them. You could apply this by loading subscriptions for a number of years or as a one off charge.
Other wise you may well end up with people joining clubs then walking away as a disposal route in itself.
Clubs & other organisations will have to get tough on it otherwise they will be swamped.

 

[Salt'n'shaken]

Throwing money into a pot oh oh
Government schemes haven’t the greatest record when it comes to chucking money at things and letting ‘ someone’ then administer it away, sadly

Taking the Exe as an example (which is littered with discarded boats) if every mooring holder paid a bit extra a year, then Exeter port authority (who carry out most of the salvage in the estuary anyhow) could be employed by the mooring authorities to clear up the crap.

I know that the EA have been putting pressure onto the various mooring authorities to clean up a lot of the associated detritus, so it'll happen by some mechanism eventually.

Would be better if producer paid, but it'll be us eventually. Fairer than the taxpayer doing it though

 

[Salt'n'shaken]

Yea thanks a lot Buster , guess that you are quite new to boating or are not versed in our traditional Boating Ways

What, like emptying your holding tank in marina then treating yourself to another can of spinach? That sort of traditional?

 

[Blueboatman]

Taking the Exe as an example (which is littered with discarded boats) if every mooring holder paid a bit extra a year, then Exeter port authority (who carry out most of the salvage in the estuary anyhow) could be employed by the mooring authorities to clear up the crap.

I know that the EA have been putting pressure onto the various mooring authorities to clean up a lot of the associated detritus, so it'll happen by some mechanism eventually.

Would be better if producer paid, but it'll be us eventually. Fairer than the taxpayer doing it though

A deposit scheme might be another way - passed on from owner to new owner but effectively held by the harbour authority against the abandonment scenario costs ..

 

[Salt'n'shaken]

A deposit scheme might be another way - passed on from owner to new owner but effectively held by the harbour authority against the abandonment scenario costs ..

Sounds very sensible

 

[Capt Popeye]

Rum Pirate has posted details of a Company that deals with Abandoned and Derelict boats on another Thread that he has just started !

'What percentage' ,

Seems that there are already companys dealing with this issue , so avoiding the Draconian and Unfair suggestion from a few on this thread

Thank Gaud for some sensible suggestions about Disposal

 

[Capt Popeye]

Might just mention , on the suggestion /claim that some boats are unrepairable , etc

I went to the Sunbeam Owners Club car show yesterday , on Teignmouth Green (Den) and admired all the many Cars fully resored , most from abandoned wrecks , oft listed as 'Barn Finds' in adverts

So if some peoples are prepared and able to restore these Cars to Showroom Condition I cannot see that many of our Boat wrecks cannot be restored likewise ? after all restoring a Boat must surely be easier n cheaper that restoring a Car , which is made from a material that actually rusts away to nowt

 

[jac]

Might just mention , on the suggestion /claim that some boats are unrepairable , etc

I went to the Sunbeam Owners Club car show yesterday , on Teignmouth Green (Den) and admired all the many Cars fully resored , most from abandoned wrecks , oft listed as 'Barn Finds' in adverts

So if some peoples are prepared and able to restore these Cars to Showroom Condition I cannot see that many of our Boat wrecks cannot be restored likewise ? after all restoring a Boat must surely be easier n cheaper that restoring a Car , which is made from a material that actually rusts away to nowt
View attachment 138394View attachment 138395

Beautiful cars and a real labour of love.

But i would argue it misses the point. Only a small % of old cars are restored. Most end up in breakers yards.

Whilst some can do lovely work with older boats, ( Old gaffers anyone) many of the old small boats will be abandoned. There are only so many 50 year old centaurs that people will want to buy and restore to showroom condition. So what happens to the 90% of old boats that do not fall into the hands of a cash / time & talent rich nostalgic owner?

Any scheme needs to face the practicalities that says that manufacturers / first owners may be viable funding source for scrapping currently brand new boats in 50 years time but does little to fairly clean up the problem of current boats.