Old boat dumping problems

Capt Popeye

Well-known member
Joined
30 Sep 2011
Messages
18,830
Location
Dawlish South Devon
Visit site
Beautiful cars and a real labour of love.

But i would argue it misses the point. Only a small % of old cars are restored. Most end up in breakers yards.

Whilst some can do lovely work with older boats, ( Old gaffers anyone) many of the old small boats will be abandoned. There are only so many 50 year old centaurs that people will want to buy and restore to showroom condition. So what happens to the 90% of old boats that do not fall into the hands of a cash / time & talent rich nostalgic owner?

Any scheme needs to face the practicalities that says that manufacturers / first owners may be viable funding source for scrapping currently brand new boats in 50 years time but does little to fairly clean up the problem of current boats.

Ahoy there jac thank you for a most considered and informative posting on this matter (unlike some?) but as in the post on similar topic started by Rum Pirate there are already companes that deal with scrap , abandoned boats , some they deal with as scrap others they try to find a good buyer for , so all in all my guess is that there is provision for dealing with this issue already ?
 

oldharry

Well-known member
Joined
30 May 2001
Messages
9,956
Location
North from the Nab about 10 miles
Visit site
Ahoy there jac thank you for a most considered and informative posting on this matter (unlike some?) but as in the post on similar topic started by Rum Pirate there are already companes that deal with scrap , abandoned boats , some they deal with as scrap others they try to find a good buyer for , so all in all my guess is that there is provision for dealing with this issue already ?
All very well, but a boatscrapping service is definitely not for free, unlike scrapping a car. I have an 11ft grp dinghy in the garden which was damaged some years ago in a storm. I was quoted £350 for scrapping it. Anyone want a garden planter?
 

jac

Well-known member
Joined
10 Sep 2001
Messages
9,234
Location
Home Berkshire, Boat Hamble
Visit site
All very well, but a boatscrapping service is definitely not for free, unlike scrapping a car. I have an 11ft grp dinghy in the garden which was damaged some years ago in a storm. I was quoted £350 for scrapping it. Anyone want a garden planter?
And a car can be scrapped at hundreds of places across the country using simple breakdown / hiab vehicles. Scrapping a non seaworthy boat will take cranes, low loaders and possibly a long drive to take it one of a few potential sites. Even if the boat can then be scrapped and sufficient cash raised to cover the grinding up of the low value GRP then it won't cover the costs for shipping a 30 foot wreck a couple of hundred miles
 

jac

Well-known member
Joined
10 Sep 2001
Messages
9,234
Location
Home Berkshire, Boat Hamble
Visit site
Ahoy there jac thank you for a most considered and informative posting on this matter (unlike some?) but as in the post on similar topic started by Rum Pirate there are already companes that deal with scrap , abandoned boats , some they deal with as scrap others they try to find a good buyer for , so all in all my guess is that there is provision for dealing with this issue already ?
The other part is that whilst companies such as Boat Breakers may have a reasonable and scalable model to scrap boats, it relies on responsible owners to pay them to scrap a boat. Looking at their calculator - to scrap a 3 tonne GRP boat ( i.e. something like a centaur) it will cost £660 + transport costs + crane costs. Maybe £2k. From that they will subtract the value of any working engine or electronics etc that they might be able to sell. Now a responsible owner might just sign the whole boat away and walk away. An irresponsible owner might remove the engine and electronics, mast, sails etc, sell them, for £1000, remove any distinguishing marks from the boat and abandon it, claiming he sold it to some bloke in the pub for £500 and he's no longer responsible for it.

That's why an end to end solution is required that can pick up the abandoned boat from a mooring or boatyard and dispose of.
 

AntarcticPilot

Well-known member
Joined
4 May 2007
Messages
10,589
Location
Cambridge, UK
www.cooperandyau.co.uk
The other part is that whilst companies such as Boat Breakers may have a reasonable and scalable model to scrap boats, it relies on responsible owners to pay them to scrap a boat. Looking at their calculator - to scrap a 3 tonne GRP boat ( i.e. something like a centaur) it will cost £660 + transport costs + crane costs. Maybe £2k. From that they will subtract the value of any working engine or electronics etc that they might be able to sell. Now a responsible owner might just sign the whole boat away and walk away. An irresponsible owner might remove the engine and electronics, mast, sails etc, sell them, for £1000, remove any distinguishing marks from the boat and abandon it, claiming he sold it to some bloke in the pub for £500 and he's no longer responsible for it.

That's why an end to end solution is required that can pick up the abandoned boat from a mooring or boatyard and dispose of.
But then you have the legal tangle of determining ownership. It's relatively clear for a boat in a yard with unpaid fees (but even that requires a legal process before the yard acquires rights over the boat), but what about a boat abandoned up a creek somewhere? While many such are "harbours" with associated fees, many are not. And perhaps part of the problem is that abandoning a boat in an unused spot is a very ancient practice; most of the ancient vessels we have evidence of were either abandoned (e.g. the Ferriby boats, Great Harry, Beagle etc.) sunk (Mary Rose, Skuldelev ships) or buried (Sutton Hoo).
 

jac

Well-known member
Joined
10 Sep 2001
Messages
9,234
Location
Home Berkshire, Boat Hamble
Visit site
But then you have the legal tangle of determining ownership. It's relatively clear for a boat in a yard with unpaid fees (but even that requires a legal process before the yard acquires rights over the boat), but what about a boat abandoned up a creek somewhere? While many such are "harbours" with associated fees, many are not. And perhaps part of the problem is that abandoning a boat in an unused spot is a very ancient practice; most of the ancient vessels we have evidence of were either abandoned (e.g. the Ferriby boats, Great Harry, Beagle etc.) sunk (Mary Rose, Skuldelev ships) or buried (Sutton Hoo).
very true. That may actually require an act of parliament I suppose to simplify the matter in the same way that wrecked cars get a " Police Aware" sticker on them and are then removed and scrapped . The great difference between those noteworthy vessels you mention and the 50 year old abandoned Centaur though is that the wooden ship would eventually break up and rot. The GRRP boat will still be there, just more derelict in 50 years time. We either allow abandoned boats to proliferate in quiet unmanaged creeks or we empower "someone" to remove them and fund it from either general taxation or from boaters.

Once the principle of removal has been agreed then it's merely the question of agreeing thresholds for " What is abandoned" and answers to " Who authorises, collects ,removes and recycles" and " How is this funded"
 

Keith 66

Well-known member
Joined
21 Jun 2007
Messages
1,756
Location
Benfleet Essex
Visit site
Cars are made from easily recyclable materials GRP boats are not. Forget about waste GRP having any value, It has none whatsoever in fact is a liability., Old grp yachts degrade to the point where they are not in any way economic to restore to usable condition. Add to this that the number of potential users or yotties has steadily been falling since a peak around the mid 1970's & there is no market for them even if they were economically repairable.
 

Stemar

Well-known member
Joined
12 Sep 2001
Messages
23,942
Location
Home - Southampton, Boat - Gosport
Visit site
It wouldn't solve the immediate issue, but a "tax" paid on new boats to cover eventual disposal would mean the problem is dealt with for the future. Make it work like pensions, where your pension contributions today pay my pension today (thank you), and we hope there will be enough contributions in the future to pay yours, and it would go somewhere towards clearing up today's mess.
 

Keith 66

Well-known member
Joined
21 Jun 2007
Messages
1,756
Location
Benfleet Essex
Visit site
The fact also is that the final user of a worn out boat is more than likely a shoestring sailor, who simply doesn't have the cash to dispose responsibly of a boat fast becoming a liability. eBay 99p 'bargains’ rapidly turn dreams to çash gobbling nightmares.

A prime example is an early snapdragon, poor condition, owner passed away, partner flogs it on ebay to a bloke from the pub, only id a first name & wears a hat, No full name, no address, a mobile number that is now permanently unobtainable. As soon as he hears he is expected to join the club & pay subs & storage he evaporates into thin air after stripping it of anything valuable. Result is we the members will have to stump up to have it disposed off. It isnt the first & looking at the numbers wont be the last.
 

jac

Well-known member
Joined
10 Sep 2001
Messages
9,234
Location
Home Berkshire, Boat Hamble
Visit site
A prime example is an early snapdragon, poor condition, owner passed away, partner flogs it on ebay to a bloke from the pub, only id a first name & wears a hat, No full name, no address, a mobile number that is now permanently unobtainable. As soon as he hears he is expected to join the club & pay subs & storage he evaporates into thin air after stripping it of anything valuable. Result is we the members will have to stump up to have it disposed off. It isnt the first & looking at the numbers wont be the last.
One can see this getting worse. Once it becomes known that clubs / harbour authorities etc will be chasing this then you can see marine versions of fly tippers setting up, posing as reputable organisations like Boat Breakers buying these "wrecks" for £10 saying they will dispose of and remove the worry from the next of kin but instead removing anything of any value and flogging it and just abandoning the hull.
 

oldharry

Well-known member
Joined
30 May 2001
Messages
9,956
Location
North from the Nab about 10 miles
Visit site
This is all ammunition for those who would have every boat in the country registered, so that ownership and therfore liability is proven.

There's a whole industry there: the legislation is already in place to make MMO a sort of marine DVLA Swansea in the fullness of time if it becomes necessary. It's the same legislation behind the Studland fiasco - the Marine andCoastal Access Act 2009. This mainly deals with the Fishing fleet, conservation, marine Plan management, and the sting in the tail for us: licensed activities.
 

Stemar

Well-known member
Joined
12 Sep 2001
Messages
23,942
Location
Home - Southampton, Boat - Gosport
Visit site
This is all ammunition for those who would have every boat in the country registered, so that ownership and therfore liability is proven.

There's a whole industry there: the legislation is already in place to make MMO a sort of marine DVLA Swansea in the fullness of time if it becomes necessary. It's the same legislation behind the Studland fiasco - the Marine andCoastal Access Act 2009. This mainly deals with the Fishing fleet, conservation, marine Plan management, and the sting in the tail for us: licensed activities.
I really don't like the idea but, sadly, I fear you may be right. All responsible owners are already registered anyway. SSR to get a MMSI for your radio licence, so it's only a small step.
 

Blueboatman

Well-known member
Joined
10 Jul 2005
Messages
13,867
Visit site
This is all ammunition for those who would have every boat in the country registered, so that ownership and therfore liability is proven.

There's a whole industry there: the legislation is already in place to make MMO a sort of marine DVLA Swansea in the fullness of time if it becomes necessary. It's the same legislation behind the Studland fiasco - the Marine andCoastal Access Act 2009. This mainly deals with the Fishing fleet, conservation, marine Plan management, and the sting in the tail for us: licensed activities.
Spot on

Awful expensive , these ‘managed’ bureaucracies.

Look what you get for a Part One registration, a piece of paper that ‘lasts’ 5 years.
Reneging on the proper Blue Book..

Renewal ? A few more beer tokens please . Thank you very much

Awesome
 
Last edited:

Poignard

Well-known member
Joined
23 Jul 2005
Messages
53,228
Location
South London
Visit site
Spot on

Awful expensive , these ‘managed’ bureaucracies.

Look what you get for a Part One registration, a piece of paper that ‘lasts’ 5 years.
Reneging on the proper Blue Book..

Renewal ? A few more beer tokens please . Thank you very much

Awesome
You don't even get a piece of paper now.
 
Last edited:

jac

Well-known member
Joined
10 Sep 2001
Messages
9,234
Location
Home Berkshire, Boat Hamble
Visit site
I really don't like the idea but, sadly, I fear you may be right. All responsible owners are already registered anyway. SSR to get a MMSI for your radio licence, so it's only a small step.

I would disagree. I think there are a lot of small boats, especially trailer sailors, sportsboats and dinghies that are not registered, have no MMSI etc. A large number of derelict small yachts/ keelboats / dinghies is probably as ugly as a smaller number of larger boats.
 

AntarcticPilot

Well-known member
Joined
4 May 2007
Messages
10,589
Location
Cambridge, UK
www.cooperandyau.co.uk
I would disagree. I think there are a lot of small boats, especially trailer sailors, sportsboats and dinghies that are not registered, have no MMSI etc. A large number of derelict small yachts/ keelboats / dinghies is probably as ugly as a smaller number of larger boats.
And neither SSR nor MMSI indicate ownership.
 

Stemar

Well-known member
Joined
12 Sep 2001
Messages
23,942
Location
Home - Southampton, Boat - Gosport
Visit site
And neither SSR nor MMSI indicate ownership.
That's legal weaselling to avoid responsibility if they get it wrong - just like my car registration says it isn't proof of ownership, though AIUI, there's no legal requirement to inform SSR if you sell your boat.

For it to be a "proper" registration system, registration would have to last indefinitely, with a requirement to inform SSR of changes. As for smaller boats, I think they're less of a problem - a few GRP munchers scattered around the coast could deal with them.

If we have to have a registration system to deal with derelicts, I'd apply it to all vessels over, say 6m, plus those originally fitted with an inboard engine, as that seems to me about the point at which they're going to have to be taken apart properly because of fuel, oil, etc.
 

AntarcticPilot

Well-known member
Joined
4 May 2007
Messages
10,589
Location
Cambridge, UK
www.cooperandyau.co.uk
That's legal weaselling to avoid responsibility if they get it wrong - just like my car registration says it isn't proof of ownership, though AIUI, there's no legal requirement to inform SSR if you sell your boat.

For it to be a "proper" registration system, registration would have to last indefinitely, with a requirement to inform SSR of changes. As for smaller boats, I think they're less of a problem - a few GRP munchers scattered around the coast could deal with them.

If we have to have a registration system to deal with derelicts, I'd apply it to all vessels over, say 6m, plus those originally fitted with an inboard engine, as that seems to me about the point at which they're going to have to be taken apart properly because of fuel, oil, etc.
Well, MMSI (or rather, the Ship Station License which gives the MMSI) is merely a license to operate a transmitter aboard a specific vessel. Its nature and limits are specified by the ITU, an international body, and changing it to include anything to do with ownership of the vessel isn't going to happen. UK ship registry CAN provide strong evidence of ownership - but only by Part 1 registration. Part 1 registration is more akin to the vehicle licensing system than the SSR (Part 3) registration that most small-craft use. And very few of the boats that are abandoned will be registered on the SSR; it's really only important for those who consider cruising abroad. The SSR is specifically NOT a register of ownership; it merely fulfills a minimum international requirement for UK craft overseas to be able to prove they are UK vessels. Given the number of people who complain about the renewal fee for the SSR, I don't think you're going to get people interested in a registration scheme like Part 1, and given that Part 1 exists, I don't think Parliament is likely to find precious time to enact the legislation that would be required to make such registration compulsory.
 
Top