lw395
Well-Known Member
I think the 'human preventer' would have been much worse off if tethered.
The boat trawling someone on the title page is a J24? There used to be one of those in the Diver's 'Solent Wrecks' book.
Not falling Overboard
- Thread starter thinwater
- Start date
I think the 'human preventer' would have been much worse off if tethered.
The boat trawling someone on the title page is a J24? There used to be one of those in the Diver's 'Solent Wrecks' book.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
This is clearly a case of one size does not fit all. A nice day sail in fair weather with some crew? Most of us would take no special precautions. I would not. Solo? Winter? Gale conditions? Fast boat going at 15 knots? I sail like that sometimes and I take precautions. In those conditions, boat jumping like crazy (stuffing waves, negative Gs up front), no help if you fall in, and a survival time measured in minutes, wearing a tether is the cure. It keeps you from going in.
"I think the 'human preventer' would have been much worse off if tethered." There are many examples where if you are sailing with a full crew, probably relatively near shore, in daylight, and certainly in close company in a round-the-bouys race, where it is safer to fall off than to be caught by a tether. I can think of a few cases where it is not; in one of the video, a man flies off the front of an AC cat and the boat goes over him; he could easily have been killed by a foil at that speed. On the other hand, cats represent a good case for tethers because you can route them far inboard, keeping the crew well away from the rail. This sailor would have been easy to restrain with even a rather long a tether.
But I certainly don't wear a tether or a PFD every day. Solutions must fit the problem, including the weather, the crew, the boat, and the type of sailing at hand.
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Yellow Ballad
Well-Known Member
I use neoprene dinghy shoes/slippers.
Bloody fantastic when bouncing around on the foredeck changing sails.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
I have Treadmaster on the deck. Brilliant stuff.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Non-skid always bears repeating. I've yet to find a boat that didn't have a few slick spots where non-skid was not not applied for some cosmetic reason. Sloped cabin sides are a constant problem; at dock they may seem steep for someone to try to walk on, but heel the boat over and that changes. Also, even if the surface is a little too steep, non-skid makes the slide a lot slower.
Roberto
Well-Known Member
agree, when offshore alone I usually do not wear a pfd, I consider myself dead should I fall in the water, but I double the tether and crawl whatever movement I have to do on deck.
While approaching a port or whatever, when there is the need to prepare fenders, mooring lines, anchor... all over the boat, I do not use a tether as too cumbersome but always wear a pfd with attached a portable dsc vhf.
Zero risk in sailing means sitting under a tree, I guess each one adapts the behaviour, techniques etc to his/her personal risk profile.
Ever seen Vendee globe skipper filming themselves while repairing their outside rudders, no tether, hanging outside the aft lifelines, one hand on the running backstay and the other with the spanner? Each to his own preferences.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
agree, when offshore alone I usually do not wear a pfd, I consider myself dead should I fall in the water, but I double the tether and crawl whatever movement I have to do on deck.
While approaching a port or whatever, when there is the need to prepare fenders, mooring lines, anchor... all over the boat, I do not use a tether as too cumbersome but always wear a pfd with attached a portable dsc vhf.
Zero risk in sailing means sitting under a tree, I guess each one adapts the behaviour, techniques etc to his/her personal risk profile.
Ever seen Vendee globe skipper filming themselves while repairing their outside rudders, no tether, hanging outside the aft lifelines, one hand on the running backstay and the other with the spanner? Each to his own preferences.
At the very least you put a tether on the spanner, since there isn't a store handy after you drop it!
Roberto
Well-Known Member
I think some of them have such a strong motivation that all the rest falls behind, perhaps not rationnally.
A few decades ago there was also the "macho" approach à la Kersauzon "he who falls in the water has not his place onboard" and similar amenities, ditto Tabarly death. IMHO it is unfortunate that these people (unarguably among the best sailors ever) have contributed to spread such a vision of safety onboard.
It s very interesting to study and consider all the details, especially if with a minimum of personal experience, though in aggregate terms a significant percentage of people being asked to wear a lifejacket still replies "I know how to swim" or "are we sinking?"
thinwater
Well-Known Member
I think some of them have such a strong motivation that all the rest falls behind, perhaps not rationnally.
A few decades ago there was also the "macho" approach à la Kersauzon "he who falls in the water has not his place onboard" and similar amenities, ditto Tabarly death. IMHO it is unfortunate that these people (unarguably among the best sailors ever) have contributed to spread such a vision of safety onboard.
It s very interesting to study and consider all the details, especially if with a minimum of personal experience, though in aggregate terms a significant percentage of people being asked to wear a lifejacket still replies "I know how to swim" or "are we sinking?"
Pretty funny. And true.
* If I am on your boat and you ask me to wear a PFD, I will.
* If you are on my boat, I will set the rule according to the situation.
* I will ask guests if they swim; please tell the truth, including how well, but I also know from experience that some people will lie, or at least exaggerate a lot.
* The fact that we have PFDs, jacklines (permanent) and harnesses readily available should communicate that wearing them does not reflect cowardice.
Just the motion of an unfamiliar boat can throw anyone. I've sailed a lot, but it often takes a few days to really feel at ease on a new deck, at least for me. It takes a few days to learn the best way to move, where to step, and what to hold. Tethering the first little while, even in moderate conditions, may be good sense.
snooks
Well-Known Member
Great idea for a feature....
Ah..
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/stay-deck-avoid-mob-51411
:0D
Ah..
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/stay-deck-avoid-mob-51411
:0D
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
I suspect that is the reason Vendee sailors never seem to wear lifelines.
Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
A few points;-
Nobody seemed to stop. Surely that has to be first.
Stanchions. At SBS I've seen them secured with self tapping screws.
Guard rails at 18" high should be called trip lines.
Jack stays should be inboard.
A positive thought;- during protracted "discussions" with H&S on our exhibition stand, the suggestion was made that a system similar to a self retracting car safety belt be employed.
Other provisions were deemed adequate but it could be an idea on the deck. Free movement until snatched when it locks up. Could possibly keep you from hitting the water.
Nobody seemed to stop. Surely that has to be first.
Stanchions. At SBS I've seen them secured with self tapping screws.
Guard rails at 18" high should be called trip lines.
Jack stays should be inboard.
A positive thought;- during protracted "discussions" with H&S on our exhibition stand, the suggestion was made that a system similar to a self retracting car safety belt be employed.
Other provisions were deemed adequate but it could be an idea on the deck. Free movement until snatched when it locks up. Could possibly keep you from hitting the water.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
They are available - but are relatively recent.
The marine environment is harsh and making such a device that will stand the salt and be strong enough to ensure the same reliability of a seat belt restraint is a major issue.
The trigger for this series of threads and posts was the loss of life on Clipper. There are innovations being used on Volvo yachts (loops in jackstays), different hook/clips being used on Volvo yachts, Thinwater has underlined different hooks/clips and has suggested a slightly different mechanism of failure to that proposed by the MAIB/Clipper (MAIB/Clipper suggest side loading, Thinwater suggests simply locking the tape in the jaw is enough). Snook's link suggests centre line jackstays - there is information out there - that is apparently - ignored. The industry, or parts of it, look to be very reactionary.
The hook used failed - for whatever reason - as far as I know they are still on sale. As far as I know they are still used on Clipper yachts.
The question might be posed a different way: Would you want your children (or yourself) to be paying good money to be on a Clipper yacht. Or what changes would you like to see.
Jonathan
johnalison
Well-Known Member
It is scarcely practicable to put tall stanchions and rails on small yachts. I haven't measured mine, but regard them only as a useful guide when walking around the boat when in harbour or otherwise stationary. When netted they can be useful for children and dogs, but it would be a mistake to rely on them to protect you when at sea. I have sailed happily without rails on the broads and only lost one crew member briefly over the side in many years, and sea-going yachts in previous generations seldom had rails. High rails and bulwarks are a bonus if they can be fitted, but most of us have to manage without.
Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
Why? My boat is 33' overall and the stanchions are 2' high. They give an enormous feeing of security. (……and they are socketed, through bolted with M20 screws and with substantial backing plates).
johnalison
Well-Known Member
And my boat is 34' with substantial stanchions bolted, but I don't mentally rely on them, and there are many who would regard these as large boats. I had one boat with short stanchions - a Mystere - but somehow we managed, probably by studiously avoiding the Southern Ocean.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
A few thoughts:
I see reasons to move the jackstay inboard a little, but every MOB seems to be to leeward. People only fall up hill in magazine articles. The Clipper man fell down hill.
Guardrails are only trip lines if you stand tall. Get low when you need to.
Strong stanchions are nice. What is more important is that they bend instead of tearing out and that they maintain the wire spacing. If you worry about going between the wires, add netting. I do wonder that it is not required, since folks do slide under the wire.
Anyone who thinks using a halyard sounds like a good idea should try it in a seaway. You can decide for your self.
I see reasons to move the jackstay inboard a little, but every MOB seems to be to leeward. People only fall up hill in magazine articles. The Clipper man fell down hill.
Guardrails are only trip lines if you stand tall. Get low when you need to.
Strong stanchions are nice. What is more important is that they bend instead of tearing out and that they maintain the wire spacing. If you worry about going between the wires, add netting. I do wonder that it is not required, since folks do slide under the wire.
Anyone who thinks using a halyard sounds like a good idea should try it in a seaway. You can decide for your self.
elton
Well-Known Member
Keep tidy decks.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
That's a good point as I have gone for convenience over tidiness and have to step around doing dinghy, boarding plank, asymmetric and all fenders rolling about when going forward.
It's never been an issue but one day it the dark it could be - must finally get some basic little hooks to attach the bottom of the fenders to the guardrails so they dangle instead of rolling about
TLouth7
Well-Known Member
On the subject of human preventers - do not do this. I was once in a similar situation to the video, but instead of being thrown clear to windward I was thrown due aft, did a flip off the coach roof and ended up upside-down on my back on the cockpit sole, aft of the mainsheet traveller. This was not as fun as it sounds and could easily have resulted in serious injury to me or anyone else in the cockpit. It also took several minutes to extract me.
On the subject of guard wires - if they are lower than your centre of gravity then you are likely to go over the top if you fall against them hard. Crotch high is not sufficient to prevent this as your centre of gravity is around your navel, but the higher the better. In my mind the key purpose of guard wires is to provide an additional handhold as you move along the side-deck. The problem is that relatively slack wires are pretty bad for this.
On the subject of netting - my understanding was that most netting is intended to help with securing sails, and is not nearly strong enough to hold a person. Therefore adding netting for peace of mind is probably counterproductive. I would be happy to be proved wrong on this though.
I have found on racing yachts that toe-rails are surprisingly critical in staying on the boat as you spend more time on the foredeck or the leeward side-deck. Compare to cruising where in marginal conditions you would typically expect to move along the windward side and only as far as the mast.
On the subject of guard wires - if they are lower than your centre of gravity then you are likely to go over the top if you fall against them hard. Crotch high is not sufficient to prevent this as your centre of gravity is around your navel, but the higher the better. In my mind the key purpose of guard wires is to provide an additional handhold as you move along the side-deck. The problem is that relatively slack wires are pretty bad for this.
On the subject of netting - my understanding was that most netting is intended to help with securing sails, and is not nearly strong enough to hold a person. Therefore adding netting for peace of mind is probably counterproductive. I would be happy to be proved wrong on this though.
I have found on racing yachts that toe-rails are surprisingly critical in staying on the boat as you spend more time on the foredeck or the leeward side-deck. Compare to cruising where in marginal conditions you would typically expect to move along the windward side and only as far as the mast.