No cringle for cunningham/downhaul. And a Dutchman reefing question.

[Daydream believer]

Dan. I am more than aware of the use of the ring you show & it does look neat & is not that hard to do. However, with the sail in question I would suggest that the surrounding area needs a fair amount of reinforcement. The pictures of your sail do not show much & the cloth will have aged. Originally the cringle would have relied on pushing against the foot & luff bolt ropes plus a couple of additional layers of cloth. In any event it has still pulled out.
My suggestion of the webbing spreads the load over a wider area of sail & onto the 2 edge ropes all in one go.
But it was only a suggestion & I do not have the luxury of the sail in my hand

 

[Greenheart]

I think your webbing idea is very sound, in part because the width of the track won't (or may not) accommodate a ring and turnover, so it would stand proud of its intended position; and partly because I have so few of those brass turnover pieces, and plenty of webbing. I'd rather keep the turnovers for slab-reef cringles, etc. I'll use webbing. ?

 

[ianat182]

You could contact Kayospruce at Titchfield for their Stainless cringles - male and female -called Endeavour Rings , and a tool, that use a ring( nylon ) and would also fit your main boom track with a split pin or small shackle at the luff end. (Picture on their website)
They have everything for dinghies and yachts and I find them very helpful. As you are fairly local it might pay to get their catalogue for sailcloths and fabrics Sunbrella and the like, its worth the postage if they will send it. Their Telephone number is 01489 581696.

ianat182

 

[Wing Mark]

I'd just stitch on a tack strap to go around the mast, or a loop of webbing to tie some dyneema to.
It looks like the eye has pulled out, the remaining cloth is a bit weak? Not much reinforcement there.

If it was a Jib clew or something which really needs a proper eye, I've had them pressed in by local sailmakers for a few quid, you can't beat having the proper tools to do it properly. A minute's work if you've the parts to hand and a hydraulic press!
I've bought much newer mains than that for about £100 a go, for club racing, so it's probably not worth spending much on it.

 

[oldbloke]

2 suggestions. Firstly, the luff rope looks as if it has shrunk. Very common in long unused old sails. If you can't easily stretch out the luff and foot creases , then release the bolt ropes and stitch back once they have relaxed.
Secondly, as you are having trouble feeding the sail into the groove as sail feeder, also known as the monkey's boll...ks will transform your life

 

[Daydream believer]

2 suggestions. Firstly, the luff rope looks as if it has shrunk. Very common in long unused old sails. If you can't easily stretch out the luff and foot creases , then release the bolt ropes and stitch back once they have relaxed.
Secondly, as you are having trouble feeding the sail into the groove as sail feeder, also known as the monkey's boll...ks will transform your life

I do not think that feeding the sail into the groove whilst standing on the shore should be a problem in most situations. However, once one gets underway & perhaps has not hoisted the main it could be awkward with the main flopped in the cockpit
Furthermore, I can imagine from my own dinghy days that Dan's problem is that as he approaches the shore he wants to quickly drop the main & with a bolt rope in the luff groove the friction is an issue ( regardless of how much lube one uses) & the sail then flops out of the track on to the deck obscuring his view round the mast. The lazy jacks can only do so much. He would have to go forward to get it down whilst trying to hop over the side to avoid ramming a ramp, or whatever. Bits of string to pull the sail down is just another avoidable hassle likely to cause a snag with the inevitable accident.
By having sail sliders the sail will drop quicker, automatically start the process of flaking the sail, Keep it on top of the boom ( At the luff at least) & most importantly , not allow the front portion of the sail to restrict his vision ( hopefully)
I think Dan will find fitting sliders worth the effort.
Regarding the shrunken bolt rope. This is a problem often found with old sails but halyard tension & a good soaking with the inevitable regular capsize ( Yes I know Dan does not!!!) may stretch the rope out again whilst sailing. Having it re stitched can be expensive. If Dan did go down this route I would suggest he has the bolt rope removed & a tape sewn in complete with the sliders. ( does Dan have a sewing machine, he could sew a webbing in with a bit of practice)The extra cost along with a possible re shaping of the sail may be within his grasp depending on the sailmaker & his willingness to work on an old sail.

 

[Frogmogman]

Last things first, I've always been generous with silicone sprays, but the Osprey's boltrope is just a ghastly nuisance.

As ianat182 points out, it’s far better to use a Teflon (PTFE) spray than silicon, which can get everywhere and be be difficult to remove.

 

[MADRIGAL]

Regarding the shrunken bolt rope. This is a problem often found with old sails but halyard tension & a good soaking with the inevitable regular capsize ( Yes I know Dan does not!!!) may stretch the rope out again whilst sailing.

Yes, the object in "dinghy yachting" is to avoid capsize at all costs! With so much gear in the boat, capsize recovery is a much bigger task than at standard racing weight. Besides, all the kit would get wet.

 

[Greenheart]

So many useful suggestions here...thank you, all.

• Kayospruce stainless rings - good idea. I have a soft spot for the Sailrite kit, but I must try something I can source within 3,000 miles. I have lots of Kayo's very costly Phifertex mesh to make my spinnaker chute. Hopefully in 2022.
• Sail-feeder - this is only the second time I ever heard of such a thing, though I've seen them on chandlery shelves without recognising their purpose. I'm going to go ahead and sew sliders on the old sail, but I have two boltrope mains so if I'm not happy with the result, I'll get a feeder for the other sail. Daydream is right about my need to drop or hoist the sail, into and out of some kind of dense, orderly heap on the boom, without requiring hands-on attention. Between my lazyjacks taking all the weight of the boom with no topping lift, and the boltrope needing both hands, it's surprising I haven't taken up gardening instead. But if I can make the sail drop easily and compactly when the halyard is let go, I'll be happy.
• Silicone/PTFE - hmm, I don't understand the chemical distinction but I recall that painting over silicone is fruitless. I did have a can of McLube (more expensive than good malt Scotch) but I usually go for Holt Pro-Lube, which blends PTFE and silicone.
• I'm wary of detaching (or asking a sailmaker to detach) the boltrope from the luff sleeve it occupies, unless, when the downhaul is properly applied, the wrinkles are ineradicable. I doubt I've ever used that cunningham-block, certainly not with a four-part tackle. If it looks like the rope is shorter than the sailcloth when real purchase is applied, I doubt the sliders being sewn through the sailcloth at intervals will prevent that detachment. (To be honest, the last time I asked a sailmaker about a small possible job on one of my aged mainsails, I was told the cost would be more than the sail was worth).

If it's all a hideous mistake and no better than before, I'll give up and order a new dacron main. With sliders and slab reefs.

Hope I haven't missed anything out. I'll review this thread tomorrow. Meanwhile, needle and thread beckon.

 

[oldbloke]

A the risk of belabouring the point. Releasing a shrunken bolt rope is a trivial, non technical job. Cut the stitching, allow rope to retract, put in some new stitches. Your tea won't even had time to cool off.
I understand the attraction of the slides controlling the sail as it drops, however . ..
Look at the mast track and picture how high the retained slides are going to be , because you are going to have to stop them dropping into the feeder part of the slot.
Your issue with the sail not dropping easily suggests a lot of friction, that won't necessarily be improved by sliders and may well be worsened.
The mainsail should drop mostly under its own weight. There's 50 years of crap and corrosion in and behind the slot. It needs severely pressure washing and then sanding and polishing inside the groove . What about the pulleys? Do they spin freely? Is the halyard a smooth shiny rope, could it be a smaller diameter?.
If you try slides, just stitch them on, then if the experiment doesn't work, all is not lost.

 

[Daydream believer]

A piece of rod, or bolt with the head cut off, can be placed in the slot to stop the slides dropping out. Put a self tapping screw into it projecting 12 mm so you can get it out easily. A self tapping screw under it will stop it sliding right down the groove

 

[Daydream believer]

Yes, the object in "dinghy yachting" is to avoid capsize at all costs!

Gosh I wish someone had told me that when I was a teenager. In one Burnham week Hornet race, my record number of capsizes was 24 ( a record to this day) & we still managed 5th out of 24 starters. Mind you only 5 finished due to wind strength.
But just before covid I was sailing my Phantom, at the age of 72 & a bit out of practice . I managed to lose count at 12 but I think it was 15 individual capsizes. ( It was windy ) At that point everyone else had finished or retired & they wanted to start the next race. The race officer called the safety boat & asked if I would just pack it in & b...ger off home. My wife was on bridge duty, so I had to comply.
Sold the Phantom this year, but really miss it. The wife refuses to let me get the sailboards out of the garage- might do when she goes on a golfing holiday.

 

[ianat182]

Dan, re the spray, it works for the sliders too if you keep them, same method- into the luff groove,same results.
Have you considered modifying you sail to slab reef; it would be just two or 4 cringles for first and second reefs The first one set 15" above the Boom .
Leech cringle the same height,; position 15" vertically above the boom . Using a lightweight Seasure type pulley block fit to the boom about 6" aft of the leech
position on the sail to act as an out haul to that cringle. Directly opposite this block on the other side of the boom splice a small eye in some small diameter dyneema and fix to a stainless eye screwed or riveted to the boom; lead the dyneema forward to a triple Seasure block fixed to the kicker loop of your mast fitting then thread through the first reef cringle back through the outer pulley to a Clam cleat or jammer at the helmsman position. Run the tail of the main halyard through the centre pulley of the same block and back to the helm position and a two part jammer or clamp.
Make a mark on the halyard to indicate fully hoisted mainsail add a second mark at the reefed position. To reef , release the halyard to the fully reefed mark and jam mer pull the reefing line through the clam cleat until the reefed position is reached and the sail folds flat along the boom mark this position on the dyneema with tape. the sail is now furled and tidy, but I usually use a sail tie to secure the bulky part on the boom.

I used this rig on my Merlin when with novices, or single handed, and as it worked OK then, did a repeat on my Westerly to save going up to the mast to release halyards. A sailmaker could fix the cringles which needed reinforcing patches- I had 4 for 2 reefs. The sail sliders would inhibit the halyard drop if not able to draw through the luff slot , without sliders the re-hoist and lowering would work .

ianat182

 

[Daydream believer]

The first one set 15" above the Boom .
The sail sliders would inhibit the halyard drop if not able to draw through the luff slot , without sliders the re-hoist and lowering would work .

15 inches would be 1 slider. between gooseneck & cringle. 2nd slider could be just above the cringle so not involved in the stack if only 1 reef. Why can one not leave the sliders in the track?

 

[ianat182]

I assumed that the cunningham pulley would have taken up the first 9" of the reef on that sail and guessed at 15" as that was the Merlin distance for its area and height, but sliders on the Westerly were able to drop out of the 'gate' when reefing, though did have a retaining plate by the mouth of it and were higher from the boom.

 

[Daydream believer]

I assumed that the cunningham pulley would have taken up the first 9" of the reef on that sail and guessed at 15" as that was the Merlin distance for its area and height, but sliders on the Westerly were able to drop out of the 'gate' when reefing, though did have a retaining plate by the mouth of it and were higher from the boom.

Dan's picture shows it 6 inches up the sail & it is not so much for reefing but for controlling sail shape. Off the wind Dan would still have the full sail area presented to the breeze.
Having an open gate can be dodgy, because if one accidentally let the halyard go then a whole lot of sliders could drop out unintentionally. When coming to shore it would have to be closed otherwise the sail would flop out & defeat the point Dan was trying to acheive by keeping the luff trapped on the mast to aid visibility.

 

[Greenheart]

Interesting. I sense questions that I might not have considered if you gents hadn't discussed this. Before I decide the slab-reef cunningham cringle position, I need to measure the height of the gooseneck, below the opening of the mast-track.

I now see I've always treated the cunningham-cringle of the slab-reef in my other mainsail, as if it were the hole that is meant to be pinned at the boom...I tied it tight above the boom. So the luff of the reduced sail was always relatively lower than the leech! I might never have realised because it always looked and set quite nicely.

I spent ages on the Achilles 24, trying to bend a piece of 2mm stainless to fit in the mast track opening to extend the track, allowing the luff-sliders to run all the way to the gooseneck without jumping out. I had a neat design that would bolt to rivnuts around the track opening, allowing the track to be reopened when required. Only the rigidity of the steel slowed my progress...

...and before I finished, someone suggested blocking the track with a short bolt: nylock nut on the end inside the track, and a wingnut on the outer...I fitted one, and instantly forgot about the work of extending the track.

Anyway I've started sewing the luff sliders on the Osprey's main, so that'll take most of the rest of this month. ?

I'm reminded, looking at photos, that I could make my boom much lower if I preferred. I never much liked dinghies with low booms, but would it reduce the rig's heeling moment, to lower the whole sail by four or five inches? If so, I will, because I'm very underweight.

 

[Greenheart]

Apologies in advance, for hijacking my own thread.

Searching for the brass thimbles which seem to be available only from Sailrite in Indiana, has frustrated me for years.

#6 Eyelet 7/8" (Brass)

I know, I know, sailmakers use stainless ones which are clamped into sail corners by hydraulic presses...but the attraction of using brass rings and thimbles is the pleasing solidity of the finished item, and the fact they can be added without a sailmaker's work, or bill...so assuming one needn't import from Indiana, it's an appealing, cheap DIY solution.

Trawling old threads (most of them begun by me ), I found the following from our Western Australian friend in 2015...

I had one type [of cringle] on an old sail that had a ring of brass or stainless that was sewn all around to the sailcloth. It then had a thimble of stainless which presumably was spread on one side, fitted in, then spread on the other side to hold it in place. If you were really desperate you might achieve something similar with a piece of 25mm copper pipe which would be easy to flare out with a ball pein hammer. Good luck olewill

I hope I wasn't desperate, given how long I've coped since Will wrote that. But I don't know why I ignored his copper pipe idea for six years. I now have a metre of 22mm copper pipe (same diameter as the $7 Sailrite brass thimbles, and the same wall thickness), as well as six brass rings of the right size (harder to source than might be supposed), on order from China (eBay)...

...and I already had ball bearings of different sizes to bell-out the slender end of the thimble. Starting with sections of copper pipe, I'll have to bell-out both ends, but with plenty of pipe for minimal cash, I can afford to make a mess learning how.

Just one question...how suitable is copper, for the job?

A metals-hardness chart suggests copper is five times softer than brass, very discouraging if the metal needed to resist tensile stresses - but the thimble will itself be reinforced by the surrounding brass ring. All the copper needs to do is defend the whipping twine (which holds the ring in place) from abrasion by the line holding the corner of the sail.

I would have ordered brass tube instead of copper pipe, but I couldn't find exactly the right size (or wall thickness) and the smallest order was two metres (enough to make over 100 thimbles) for £75.

Will I end up with my clean white decks and lines besmirched by verdigris?

 

[John the kiwi]

If using copper you will probably have to anneal it by heating red hot with propane or map gas torch and quenching in water.
Trying to bell out without annealing will possibly cause it to split.
You probably knew that?

 

[Daydream believer]

If using copper you will probably have to anneal it by heating red hot with propane or map gas torch and quenching in water.
Trying to bell out without annealing will possibly cause it to split.
You probably knew that?

Exactlly correct. When model making for swaging boiler ends etc the copper has to be anealed quite a few times. So Dan cannot mess about constantly tapping it. He needs to hit it as little as possible, or at least get one end started, then re anneal before doing the other end. Perhaps place a spare sacrificial ring over a hole in a piece of hardwood, Get one end belled out, anneal then set up on the ring in the sail.
I would further point out that copper pipe comes in different grades, Table X Y & Z. I retired 20 years ago so my memory has faded & the classification has probably changed. However one grade was difficult to bend ( sometimes termed thinwall) The next grade was thicker & easier to bend so the plumber used less fittings. Table Z was the thickest, easy to bend & was for underground. If Dan has thinwall then he might be on a loser to start with.
Others in the plumbing trade may correct me, or comment- As I said, I sold that part of the business years ago & things change